What do you think?
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If you get out an atlas you'll see Christmas Island is the ONLY reason they are close to our waters. They are a LOT closer to Indonesia than mainland Australia. Christmas Island cannot support them so they are clearly either making the trip to Indonesia or the much larger trip to Australia. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Tough. They are in your waters as this was the nearest port. The law is clear here , the master must make for the nearest port. He did . You have every right not to accept economic migrants and to return them to their point of origin or their home country . You have international obligations to look after these people until such time that you make that decision. I am not saying that economic migration is good and Australia should just welcome them all in. What I am saying is that under the international treaties that Australia is a signatory to then you have a clear obligation to care for these people until such a time that you decide what to do with them. The ship was sinking , the nearest port was in Australian waters. They were attemtping to enter Australia by illegal means . In my opinion, only those with a clear case for claiming asylum should be eligable to stay in Australia , the vast majority sould therefore be returned as quickly as possible. But now , today , Australia has an international obligation to give basic human care to these people. Keep them in compounds if you want , keep them in virtual prison conditions , thats up to you , but you have a duty under law not to leave them on board the ship and to wash your hands of them. This is Australias problem , like it or not.
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Tough. They are in your waters as this was the nearest port. The law is clear here , the master must make for the nearest port. He did . You have every right not to accept economic migrants and to return them to their point of origin or their home country . You have international obligations to look after these people until such time that you make that decision. I am not saying that economic migration is good and Australia should just welcome them all in. What I am saying is that under the international treaties that Australia is a signatory to then you have a clear obligation to care for these people until such a time that you decide what to do with them. The ship was sinking , the nearest port was in Australian waters. They were attemtping to enter Australia by illegal means . In my opinion, only those with a clear case for claiming asylum should be eligable to stay in Australia , the vast majority sould therefore be returned as quickly as possible. But now , today , Australia has an international obligation to give basic human care to these people. Keep them in compounds if you want , keep them in virtual prison conditions , thats up to you , but you have a duty under law not to leave them on board the ship and to wash your hands of them. This is Australias problem , like it or not.
According to John Howard: The MV Tampa was the responsibility of Indonesia and Norway and the ship was obliged under international law to take the passengers to the nearest feasible disembarkation point which was the Indonesian port of Merak, near Jakarta, Mr Howard said. Indonesia has washed its hands of the freighter, saying it would follow Australia's lead. I would agree that Christmas Island is not in any way a 'feasable' port, in that it cannot support this number of people, which leads back to my original comment - we should put them there for a short time so that the Norwegian ship can go about it's business, but then they should be sent back to Indonesia. Give them all a form to fill in if they want to apply for entry into our country, but that's it. Indonesia saying they would follow our lead is ridiculous, and suggesting Christmas Island is a feasible destination or that getting there means entry into Australia proper for ANY length of time is also just out of control. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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For even more fun, turn 1/3 into Jews, turn 1/3 into christians, and the remaining 3rd into islamic. Before you put them all back on the boat, mount cameras in descrete locations, and voila - a new reality show for prime time. The last religious zealot left alive will be forced to move to the remote location of our choice where he he will live for the rest of his life so can't bother anyone else.
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According to John Howard: The MV Tampa was the responsibility of Indonesia and Norway and the ship was obliged under international law to take the passengers to the nearest feasible disembarkation point which was the Indonesian port of Merak, near Jakarta, Mr Howard said. Indonesia has washed its hands of the freighter, saying it would follow Australia's lead. I would agree that Christmas Island is not in any way a 'feasable' port, in that it cannot support this number of people, which leads back to my original comment - we should put them there for a short time so that the Norwegian ship can go about it's business, but then they should be sent back to Indonesia. Give them all a form to fill in if they want to apply for entry into our country, but that's it. Indonesia saying they would follow our lead is ridiculous, and suggesting Christmas Island is a feasible destination or that getting there means entry into Australia proper for ANY length of time is also just out of control. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Feasable disembarkation point ? Politicians weasel words , behind in the polls , an election coming up and an easy target to look good with. So are you now saying that Mr Howard is saying no to these people out of a deep concern that their conditions on Christmas island would be even more wretched than those inside a container on the deck of a freighter. Perhaps he would only be truly happy if they entered an Australian port with sufficient beds free in 5 star hotels ? Surely a stay on an unpleasent rock prior to returning to wherever they came from is exactly the message that he wants to give to people who seek to enter Australia illegally ? The press here is reporting that most of those on board are Afgahns , how is your press reporting it ? If they are Indonesian nationals then it adds a completly different dimension to all this argument .
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Feasable disembarkation point ? Politicians weasel words , behind in the polls , an election coming up and an easy target to look good with. So are you now saying that Mr Howard is saying no to these people out of a deep concern that their conditions on Christmas island would be even more wretched than those inside a container on the deck of a freighter. Perhaps he would only be truly happy if they entered an Australian port with sufficient beds free in 5 star hotels ? Surely a stay on an unpleasent rock prior to returning to wherever they came from is exactly the message that he wants to give to people who seek to enter Australia illegally ? The press here is reporting that most of those on board are Afgahns , how is your press reporting it ? If they are Indonesian nationals then it adds a completly different dimension to all this argument .
Feasable disembarkation point ? Politicians weasel words , behind in the polls , an election coming up and an easy target to look good with. So are you now saying that Mr Howard is saying no to these people out of a deep concern that their conditions on Christmas island would be even more wretched than those inside a container on the deck of a freighter. Perhaps he would only be truly happy if they entered an Australian port with sufficient beds free in 5 star hotels ? Surely a stay on an unpleasent rock prior to returning to wherever they came from is exactly the message that he wants to give to people who seek to enter Australia illegally ?The press here is reporting that most of those on board are Afgahns , how is your press reporting it ? If they are Indonesian nationals then it adds a completly different dimension to all this argument . They are Afghans. The issue with Indonesia is that Australia has apparently tried to enter discussion on the issue of Indonesia being used as a thoroughfare to illegal entry to Australia and Indonesia could care less, to the point of being unwilling to even discuss it. So I can see Mr. Howard wanting to send a message to Indonesia as well as the people engaged in the illegal trade of human cargo. I have tonight read opinion that the law does not appear to be in our favour, but I would still maintain that there is no logical reason for Indonesia to refuse to take these people, if that is where they came from, or for them to be taken to an island that cannot support them for any length of time. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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/Humour Alert Aack! Sending them to NZ is cruel and inhuman!!! Its far more humane to just leave them on the boat!!!! ;-) /End Humour Alert
> /Humour Alert I feel that I must inform you that you're infringing on my trademarked "Humor Hint (tm)". Please cease and desist all *useage of the word "humor" in conjunction with any other word, combinations of words, or variation of the word "humor" thereof that may or may not convey a meaning similar or dissimilar to the original and trademarked phrase. *Usage is defined as conveyance through thought, written words or phrases on any medium, spoken words or phrases, transmission through the air by radio or light waves, graphic illustration, numeric representation, defication, magnetic arrangement of refridgerator magnets, or any means of conveyance not already invented, dreamed up, thought of, discovered, decided upon, or previously mentioned in this document.
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And where is God today? Did he get bored or hated us? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
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I find it hard to believe that an invisible man in the sky is in charge of my life. Likewise, I have trouble accepting as indisputable fact most of the events in the Bible (some most definitely occurred, such as the great flood). I love the Bible - it is full of many guidelines to help you lead a great life. I attribute my own high moral values to having learned many lessons from it while attending a Christian school. Back then, I even asked Jesus into my heart because my teachers told me I should. But I can't make the leap of faith, I can't throw myself whole-heartedly at something as ambiguous as religion. I believe religion was (and still is, I guess) a tool for the oppressed, repressed, exploited masses all throughout the world and all throughout time (hence the many different flavors). It helped them to carry on with their hard, hellish existences. For people who are all alone in the world, religion is the one thing that they can cling to, for the Bible will always be there for them: * Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. * Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. * Blessed are they which to hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. * Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. * Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. * Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. * Blessed are they which are presecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. * Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. * Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. I have taken the lessons of the Bible, applied them to my life, and I am quite happy with the results. I have also "sinned" (according to the Bible) and learned many life and human experiences that it could not possibly teach me, and I am still happy. I don't go to church, I don't pay a 10% tithe, and I don't pray to Him. If someone can show me with proof that their religion is verifiably correct - that their superior being is THE ONE - then I'm in. But until that day, I have all but written off religion. That's just my humble opinion, of course. Nothing else. :| Jon Sagara Sagara Software
Jon, if you are truly interested in determining whether or not you should follow Christ, I will give you a starting point that you can take to whatever conclusion that you choose. Only I urge you to give it serious consideration, and let the solution take precedence in your life. When it comes to becoming a Christian, you first have to realize that we believe that only through acceptance of Christ as your Saviour will you receive enternal life. Only through Christ. You can either take it or leave it; However, you should NOT wait around unsure, or 90% not sure. If you have any thoughts at all that we might, possibly, in a one-in-a-million chance, be right. You need to find out for yourself. Your life depends on it. Be 100% sure either way. Here is one of the best starting points that I can give you, it contains the story of an Atheist journalist seeking historical information about Christ, (yes he is now a Christian ). However, the bibliography will lead you to dozens of research articles that will give you all the evidence you need to make a decision. The book is 'The Case for Christ' by Lee Stobel I pray for unbelievers everyday, but in all honesty you have to take the first step. You've read the Bible, now learn a little about Christ and make the call. BTW, CS Lewis once wrote that (paraphrasing) you can either take Jesus to be God, a Lunatic, or a Liar. To preach the teachings that he did to Jews would be to endanger their souls. Therefore, if he was not God, he was either insane or purposely leading people away from their faith. So it is impossible to take the believe that he just a 'good moral teacher.' Let me know what you find. God be with you and all other seekers of the truth. And no, my sig is not contradictory to my beliefs. When religion and politics help drive the same cart, they tend to drive faster and faster until it is too late to stop when they see the cliff ahead -- Frank Herbert.
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Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. So why bother praying at all? If you can't influence "God's will" by praying to him to get what you want, what is the use? If it's going to happen, it's going to happen, right? Jon Sagara Sagara Software
Not at all. The Bible state clearly "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Matthew 7:7-9 but also "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?" Matthew 7:8-10 The idea is that God intends to impart to us His perfect will for our lives, but only if we ask Him. Now that is not to say, that what we think is a perfect thing for us really is. When a Christian dies he is taken to our Lord. So a prayerful Christian who dies of a heart attack or some disease is not necessarily such an answer. Which is why most Christian prayers concerning sickness are two-fold. Heal if it is in your will, or grant us the understanding that will allow even a death to be a testament to God. When religion and politics help drive the same cart, they tend to drive faster and faster until it is too late to stop when they see the cliff ahead -- Frank Herbert.
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Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. So why bother praying at all? If you can't influence "God's will" by praying to him to get what you want, what is the use? If it's going to happen, it's going to happen, right? Jon Sagara Sagara Software
You pray to ask for good health etc. etc. But you don't say I want this. You ask if it is your will and so on. And there are many examples of prayer working. You can influence but he has the final say in it all. -Matt Newman :suss:
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Not at all. The Bible state clearly "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Matthew 7:7-9 but also "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?" Matthew 7:8-10 The idea is that God intends to impart to us His perfect will for our lives, but only if we ask Him. Now that is not to say, that what we think is a perfect thing for us really is. When a Christian dies he is taken to our Lord. So a prayerful Christian who dies of a heart attack or some disease is not necessarily such an answer. Which is why most Christian prayers concerning sickness are two-fold. Heal if it is in your will, or grant us the understanding that will allow even a death to be a testament to God. When religion and politics help drive the same cart, they tend to drive faster and faster until it is too late to stop when they see the cliff ahead -- Frank Herbert.
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I'm interested in knowing how you prove there is a god. Josh josh@that-guy.net
That's the point - you can't prove it either way: it's all a matter of personal belief or faith. I should tell you that I'm a Christian (but only recently). However, I can understand where you're coming from because I used to be a non-believer until fairly recently myself, and I remember how I felt at the time. Regardless of what you believe, I think what matters most is how you treat other people. I always tried to live by that principle before, and it's no less relevant now I've found my Faith. :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"Lots of people want to ride with you in the limo, but what you want is someone who will take the bus with you when the limo breaks down."
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Well, the basic problem really as I see it is that just about everyone talking about God is talking about religion. In other words, ritual, tradition, ideas, a power structure where the man at the top makes enough money not to feel silly in a dress, etc. If you actually read the Bible, you'll find that it's really different to that, and that the God of the Bible is into proving He exists by doing tangible things. It's because I realised that and checked it out that I found He *does* do physical things and is not at all interested in our power structures or politics that I am certain by experience there is a God. Just because you've not discovered this, just because you've not met God does not mean He does not exist. You could claim equally my wife does not exist using the same basis for your argument, the only difference is no-one has told you lies about my wife. Funny thing - as a result of the 'Allah' threads recently I got an email from someone offering to expound the Quran to me, and prove it's veracity. He refused to tell me anything until I told him some background, which I did. I emailed him three times after telling him I was a Christian and he did not reply once. Apparently he knew when he was beat... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Well said friend. Glad to meet another believer here :D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"Lots of people want to ride with you in the limo, but what you want is someone who will take the bus with you when the limo breaks down."
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Jon, if you are truly interested in determining whether or not you should follow Christ, I will give you a starting point that you can take to whatever conclusion that you choose. Only I urge you to give it serious consideration, and let the solution take precedence in your life. When it comes to becoming a Christian, you first have to realize that we believe that only through acceptance of Christ as your Saviour will you receive enternal life. Only through Christ. You can either take it or leave it; However, you should NOT wait around unsure, or 90% not sure. If you have any thoughts at all that we might, possibly, in a one-in-a-million chance, be right. You need to find out for yourself. Your life depends on it. Be 100% sure either way. Here is one of the best starting points that I can give you, it contains the story of an Atheist journalist seeking historical information about Christ, (yes he is now a Christian ). However, the bibliography will lead you to dozens of research articles that will give you all the evidence you need to make a decision. The book is 'The Case for Christ' by Lee Stobel I pray for unbelievers everyday, but in all honesty you have to take the first step. You've read the Bible, now learn a little about Christ and make the call. BTW, CS Lewis once wrote that (paraphrasing) you can either take Jesus to be God, a Lunatic, or a Liar. To preach the teachings that he did to Jews would be to endanger their souls. Therefore, if he was not God, he was either insane or purposely leading people away from their faith. So it is impossible to take the believe that he just a 'good moral teacher.' Let me know what you find. God be with you and all other seekers of the truth. And no, my sig is not contradictory to my beliefs. When religion and politics help drive the same cart, they tend to drive faster and faster until it is too late to stop when they see the cliff ahead -- Frank Herbert.
Well said brother. I couldn't have put it better myself! If you take an Alpha Course, the point about Jesus comes across very strongly in the first session. It worked on me! :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"Lots of people want to ride with you in the limo, but what you want is someone who will take the bus with you when the limo breaks down."
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Jon, if you are truly interested in determining whether or not you should follow Christ, I will give you a starting point that you can take to whatever conclusion that you choose. Only I urge you to give it serious consideration, and let the solution take precedence in your life. When it comes to becoming a Christian, you first have to realize that we believe that only through acceptance of Christ as your Saviour will you receive enternal life. Only through Christ. You can either take it or leave it; However, you should NOT wait around unsure, or 90% not sure. If you have any thoughts at all that we might, possibly, in a one-in-a-million chance, be right. You need to find out for yourself. Your life depends on it. Be 100% sure either way. Here is one of the best starting points that I can give you, it contains the story of an Atheist journalist seeking historical information about Christ, (yes he is now a Christian ). However, the bibliography will lead you to dozens of research articles that will give you all the evidence you need to make a decision. The book is 'The Case for Christ' by Lee Stobel I pray for unbelievers everyday, but in all honesty you have to take the first step. You've read the Bible, now learn a little about Christ and make the call. BTW, CS Lewis once wrote that (paraphrasing) you can either take Jesus to be God, a Lunatic, or a Liar. To preach the teachings that he did to Jews would be to endanger their souls. Therefore, if he was not God, he was either insane or purposely leading people away from their faith. So it is impossible to take the believe that he just a 'good moral teacher.' Let me know what you find. God be with you and all other seekers of the truth. And no, my sig is not contradictory to my beliefs. When religion and politics help drive the same cart, they tend to drive faster and faster until it is too late to stop when they see the cliff ahead -- Frank Herbert.
Sure. I'm always up for a good read. But let me ask you this: say there are two types of people in this world: * Those who believe in your religion (group X) * Those who do not (i.e., everyone else in the world; group Y) If the world should end, and you happened to be correct with your religious view, then only the small minority of people from group X will live in eternal bliss, whilst the vast majority of the population, group Y, will sear eternally in some sort of hell. That's a pessimistic view of things, and it's one my stumbling blocks with regard to religion. Why is group X right? Why is everyone else wrong? So it is impossible to take the believe that he just a 'good moral teacher.' No. All "cults" have "Lunatics" and "Liars" as their leaders. But this is a whole different can of worms that I unfortunately don't have time to deal with right now. I respect your opinions; please respect mine. I look forward to reading that book. Amazon will be shipping it shortly. Thanks for the suggestion. :) Jon Sagara Sagara Software
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Not at all. The Bible state clearly "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Matthew 7:7-9 but also "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?" Matthew 7:8-10 The idea is that God intends to impart to us His perfect will for our lives, but only if we ask Him. Now that is not to say, that what we think is a perfect thing for us really is. When a Christian dies he is taken to our Lord. So a prayerful Christian who dies of a heart attack or some disease is not necessarily such an answer. Which is why most Christian prayers concerning sickness are two-fold. Heal if it is in your will, or grant us the understanding that will allow even a death to be a testament to God. When religion and politics help drive the same cart, they tend to drive faster and faster until it is too late to stop when they see the cliff ahead -- Frank Herbert.
You just put a whole different spin on what I said. Assuming he does exist, you *can't* change his will. Jon Sagara Sagara Software
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Sure. I'm always up for a good read. But let me ask you this: say there are two types of people in this world: * Those who believe in your religion (group X) * Those who do not (i.e., everyone else in the world; group Y) If the world should end, and you happened to be correct with your religious view, then only the small minority of people from group X will live in eternal bliss, whilst the vast majority of the population, group Y, will sear eternally in some sort of hell. That's a pessimistic view of things, and it's one my stumbling blocks with regard to religion. Why is group X right? Why is everyone else wrong? So it is impossible to take the believe that he just a 'good moral teacher.' No. All "cults" have "Lunatics" and "Liars" as their leaders. But this is a whole different can of worms that I unfortunately don't have time to deal with right now. I respect your opinions; please respect mine. I look forward to reading that book. Amazon will be shipping it shortly. Thanks for the suggestion. :) Jon Sagara Sagara Software
I'm glad that you are taking the time to look at some evidence that goes beyond the normal spouting that happens in chat rooms. I do respect your opinion, The 'Lord,Liar,Lunatic' argument was one posed by CS Lewis in 'Mere Christianity' you may take it or leave it. I didn't repeat it very eloquently for the sake of brevity. For the record, I only became a Christian two years ago after looking into sources that were much like the book I suggested, however, I really like the Bibliography in this one that will let you get about as deep as you want to go in your investigation. Keep me posted on what you think after considering the book. When religion and politics help drive the same cart, they tend to drive faster and faster until it is too late to stop when they see the cliff ahead -- Frank Herbert.
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For even more fun, turn 1/3 into Jews, turn 1/3 into christians, and the remaining 3rd into islamic. Before you put them all back on the boat, mount cameras in descrete locations, and voila - a new reality show for prime time. The last religious zealot left alive will be forced to move to the remote location of our choice where he he will live for the rest of his life so can't bother anyone else.
Now, this is an idea with real merit!! I suggest we flesh this out a bit and pitch it to the network exec's in New York. 50/50 split okay with you ?
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I always thought Vinces voice was a little flat on the live recordings I have heard, but I agree, the studio stuff was not always as gutsy as they seemed to be live ( based on some bootleg tapes I've seen & heard ), especially Theatre of Pain. I am amused that you refer to the piece of rambling nonsense called the bible, which you claim confidently is full of contradictions, but you're proud not to have read it. I presume you don't base your knowledge of programming on a similar lack of experience ? Why should your ability to claim authority differ because the issue is religious in nature ? That would be like me going over to the C# forum and answering questions because 'everyone knows' . Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I didn't say I had not read the bible - I said I had not read it cover to cover. Who would ? - it's incoherent, largely interpreted (try translating anything from Hebrew to Latin to english and see what you end up with), and completely self-serving. I am amazed that anyone could possibly believe the bible was the 'definitive statement' of the human condition from a supreme being - when it is so obviously a man-made document, serving the needs and desires of the men who wrote and promoted it. If you in any way believe the actual wording of the King James version can be trusted, investigate any of the studies of the earlier texts, and check the 'accuracy' of the various translations/interpretations. I claim knowledge based upon 18 years as a catholic, with full instruction in all the "mysteries" of the religion - and the realisation that it's a nice way to keep people under control and an easy, but inevitably shallow, emotion crutch. A quick question - do you accept the book of Genesis (crap name for a band - oh, crap band!!) as being factual? Partly factual? Myth/legend/parable?
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Sure. I'm always up for a good read. But let me ask you this: say there are two types of people in this world: * Those who believe in your religion (group X) * Those who do not (i.e., everyone else in the world; group Y) If the world should end, and you happened to be correct with your religious view, then only the small minority of people from group X will live in eternal bliss, whilst the vast majority of the population, group Y, will sear eternally in some sort of hell. That's a pessimistic view of things, and it's one my stumbling blocks with regard to religion. Why is group X right? Why is everyone else wrong? So it is impossible to take the believe that he just a 'good moral teacher.' No. All "cults" have "Lunatics" and "Liars" as their leaders. But this is a whole different can of worms that I unfortunately don't have time to deal with right now. I respect your opinions; please respect mine. I look forward to reading that book. Amazon will be shipping it shortly. Thanks for the suggestion. :) Jon Sagara Sagara Software
- The Lord/Liar/Lunatic is a false trilemma. There are several other options: Jesus could have misquoted, or even made up (It's funny how there are several surviving histories that were written during the early 30s AD and how none of them ever mention Jesus...Jesus does get a scant few short mentions in later histories, but even those references are questionable. See http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott\_oser/hojfaq.html for a list.) 2) If you want an opposing view to the "Case for Christ", there's one at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff\_lowder/strobel.html 3) One thing that the Christian church will never tell you about is the "diabolic mimicry" excuse. All of the major features of Christianity--a godman born of a virgin who dies and is reborn for mankind, baptisms, communion, stories of miracles and healings, etc. had been in pagan religions centuries before anyone had ever heard of Christianity. Naturally, the early pagan critics of Christanity accused Christians of following a cheap rip off of pagan religions. The early Christian Church countered this accusation by calling paganism "diabolic mimicry". According to the early Christians, Satan had found out about Christ centuries ahead of time and established Christianity-like religions well before Christ was born in order to confuse mankind. I think that the fact that early Christians made such a pathetic excuse is sufficient reason to believe that Christianity is nothing more than a cheap rip off of earlier religions.