Religous signs
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But a veil is a direct reference to Mohammad? [EDIT]Besides, a Christmas tree, garlands and Santa Claus still are related to Christianity.[/EDIT] Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
AFAIK, the Christmas tree is the assimilation of a pagan ritual by protestant Christians to defy the Catholic Church, condemning this pagan symbol. And the Catholic Church is also not very happy with the myth of Santa Claus, for the same reason of paganism. Now these symbols are more traditional than really religious.
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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but in this day and age I would think these symbols are associated exclusively with Christmas, which is a Christian holiday. So the direct reference to Christ is not there, but few people mistake what is being celebrated.
"Myths and the magic, Triumphant and tragic, A mechanized world out of hand. "
Whatever the will of secularism, we are from a Christian tradition, for centuries. I would like to see a poll amongst kids asking them if Christmas is related to Christianity. I'm not so sure of the result.
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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Eco Jones wrote: Gee, I dunno, because they can paint and write and sing and choose different things to do like sports or cooking classes or needlepoint or martial arts or learn the linguistics of Ancient Egypt. So people can have whatever interests they like, so long as they look and act the same ? Eco Jones wrote: Or we can send the kids to the Gap What's that ? Eco Jones wrote: The pressure to conform to an arbitrary image should be eliminated so kids can concentrate on things they might actually like and that will eventually make them more well-rounded members of society. I agree - so why give them an arbitrary image and force them to conform to it ? How is this not a contradiction of what you first said ? Not every kid feels pressured to wear designer clothes, you know, and the ones that do, see each other AFTER school, where they will feel the same pressure. It becomes MORE of a big deal when the inevitable free clothes day comes, IMO. I went to several schools and I never once felt any pressure to wear anything apart from what I wanted to ( blue jeans and a Metallica t-shirt ). Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: act the same ? Beyond acceptable codes of behaviour for an educational setting, they can 'act' however they want. And they do. Why in your mind is individuality so utterly linked to what you wear? Christian Graus wrote: What's that ? The Gap is a 'trendy' clothing store with high recognition in North America. Christian Graus wrote: Not every kid feels pressured to wear designer clothes, you know Designer? No. Clothes appropriate to their 'image?' Yes. Christian Graus wrote: went to several schools and I never once felt any pressure to wear anything apart from what I wanted to ( blue jeans and a Metallica t-shirt ). That was _your_ image. And there were people who probably wouldn't have talked to you or gotten to know you because you dressed like that. School is about education. An important lesson is that people can dress differently than you and still be worth knowing. Forcing kids to dress the same and interact for an extended period of time will help to enforce that lesson. Society pressures kids to 'fit in or be cast out of the herd.' Biology has bred into us 'to be cast out of the herd is death.' Advertisers program 'fit in by having this stuff.' The pressure to conform already exists. Uniforms take at least part of that pressure away. Eco
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Mike Mullikin wrote: For the 40 hours a week they're attending classes they can do without - for the greater good. What greater good is that ? Mike Mullikin wrote: Studies have proven time and again that schools with uniforms actually produce fewer drop-outs. Across a wide range of all other factors ? Mike Mullikin wrote: As for lessons about society... what lessons do they learn now? Probably none, values are politically incorrect nowadays, schools won't even tell a kid they failed to pass a subject or unit. Mike Mullikin wrote: Gee, Susie wears Guess jeans and all the boys think she is hot! I better wear Guess jeans too! Hmmm.... It's not the jeans that make the boys think that, it's the way she fills them. Mike Mullikin wrote: Susie smokes pot and uses cocaine too?? Peer pressure with regard to things like drugs will exist no matter what kids wear to school. The only defence is to teach the kids at home, and that's no guarentee, either. In any case, pot does less harm than alcohol, so any household that is anti drugs and the parents drink is just teaching the kids hypocrisy. They can see through that. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: What greater good is that ? Reduced peer pressure from not having to compete with Susie's Guess jeans. Better self esteem when mom & dad cannot afford to compete with Susie's Guess jeans. Reduced costs for everyone including Susie's parents who can buy fewer Guess jeans. Comradery based on similarity. That's one of the reasons sporting teams wear uniforms. Reduce the chances of pre-conceived ideas about students based on wardrobe being used against them by students and teachers. I can even pull out Einstein's concept of wearing the same colored suit every day. Reduced brain cycles wasted choosing clothes. ;P Christian Graus wrote: Across a wide range of all other factors ? Of course. Schools that require uniforms often do other "progressive" things to aid education. Christian Graus wrote: Peer pressure with regard to things like drugs will exist no matter what kids wear to school. True, but reducing it is a start. Christian Graus wrote: In any case, pot does less harm than alcohol, so any household that is anti drugs and the parents drink is just teaching the kids hypocrisy. They can see through that. Pot was just an example. Replace it with "gets drunk" if it helps you see the point. ;P In all honesty, I don't see school uniforms as some kind of panacea of education. Just one small step towards simplicity and removing even just a few small barriers to education. All I've ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work.
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Christian Graus wrote: act the same ? Beyond acceptable codes of behaviour for an educational setting, they can 'act' however they want. And they do. Why in your mind is individuality so utterly linked to what you wear? Christian Graus wrote: What's that ? The Gap is a 'trendy' clothing store with high recognition in North America. Christian Graus wrote: Not every kid feels pressured to wear designer clothes, you know Designer? No. Clothes appropriate to their 'image?' Yes. Christian Graus wrote: went to several schools and I never once felt any pressure to wear anything apart from what I wanted to ( blue jeans and a Metallica t-shirt ). That was _your_ image. And there were people who probably wouldn't have talked to you or gotten to know you because you dressed like that. School is about education. An important lesson is that people can dress differently than you and still be worth knowing. Forcing kids to dress the same and interact for an extended period of time will help to enforce that lesson. Society pressures kids to 'fit in or be cast out of the herd.' Biology has bred into us 'to be cast out of the herd is death.' Advertisers program 'fit in by having this stuff.' The pressure to conform already exists. Uniforms take at least part of that pressure away. Eco
Eco Jones wrote: Why in your mind is individuality so utterly linked to what you wear? Because it sends a message that their individuality is being controlled and suppressed. Eco Jones wrote: The Gap is a 'trendy' clothing store with high recognition in North America. Fair enough. As you say yourself, not all kids would care, and as I said, the ones that do will still go there. That is how THEY express themself, and enforced uniforms won't stop that. Eco Jones wrote: School is about education. An important lesson is that people can dress differently than you and still be worth knowing. How would one learn that if everyone dressed the same ? Eco Jones wrote: Forcing kids to dress the same and interact for an extended period of time will help to enforce that lesson. You're gonna make them be friends ? So I would have been told to cut my hair too, I presume, so that there was no sign of me being any different to anyone else in the school ? Eco Jones wrote: Society pressures kids to 'fit in or be cast out of the herd.' Biology has bred into us 'to be cast out of the herd is death.' Advertisers program 'fit in by having this stuff.' The pressure to conform already exists. Uniforms take at least part of that pressure away. I'd rather my kids learn to be intelligent consumers. The problem still begins and ends in the home, as far as I am concerned. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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Christian Graus wrote: What greater good is that ? Reduced peer pressure from not having to compete with Susie's Guess jeans. Better self esteem when mom & dad cannot afford to compete with Susie's Guess jeans. Reduced costs for everyone including Susie's parents who can buy fewer Guess jeans. Comradery based on similarity. That's one of the reasons sporting teams wear uniforms. Reduce the chances of pre-conceived ideas about students based on wardrobe being used against them by students and teachers. I can even pull out Einstein's concept of wearing the same colored suit every day. Reduced brain cycles wasted choosing clothes. ;P Christian Graus wrote: Across a wide range of all other factors ? Of course. Schools that require uniforms often do other "progressive" things to aid education. Christian Graus wrote: Peer pressure with regard to things like drugs will exist no matter what kids wear to school. True, but reducing it is a start. Christian Graus wrote: In any case, pot does less harm than alcohol, so any household that is anti drugs and the parents drink is just teaching the kids hypocrisy. They can see through that. Pot was just an example. Replace it with "gets drunk" if it helps you see the point. ;P In all honesty, I don't see school uniforms as some kind of panacea of education. Just one small step towards simplicity and removing even just a few small barriers to education. All I've ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work.
Mike Mullikin wrote: Reduced peer pressure from not having to compete with Susie's Guess jeans. As someone else said, there's more than one subculture in a school. I'd prefer my kids not hang with people who judge you by how overpriced your clothing is. Mike Mullikin wrote: Better self esteem when mom & dad cannot afford to compete with Susie's Guess jeans. Reduced costs for everyone including Susie's parents who can buy fewer Guess jeans. School uniforms tend to be pretty expensive. The poor kids will end up in patched, ratty uniforms and the problem will be the same, or it will manifest itself in other ways. Mike Mullikin wrote: Comradery based on similarity. That's one of the reasons sporting teams wear uniforms. As in, we're in this hell together ? :P I'll grant you that one. Mike Mullikin wrote: I can even pull out Einstein's concept of wearing the same colored suit every day. Reduced brain cycles wasted choosing clothes. Well, I wore the *same* blue jeans and the *same* Metallica T-shirt every day. I wore them for the first two years of my work life as well ( although I bought new jeans and t-shirt, I just bought the same ones ). Mike Mullikin wrote: Of course. Schools that require uniforms often do other "progressive" things to aid education. So the survey means jack, and proves nothing about retention with regards to uniforms. Mike Mullikin wrote: True, but reducing it is a start. I'm astounded that you think it would make any difference as far as drugs are concerned. Mike Mullikin wrote: Pot was just an example. Replace it with "gets drunk" it it helps you see the point. I don't care what the drug is, my point is that if your kid is not drug proof already, uniforms will make no difference either way. Mike Mullikin wrote: In all honesty, I don't see school uniforms as some kind of panacea of education. Just one small step towards simplicity and removing even just a few small barriers to education. My daughter wears a uniform, so I'm not totally against it. I just don't see it as any sort of solution at all, the only thing it really does is brand kids as being part of the school, which can be a really good thing, for example in helping to spot people in the play ground who are NOT part of the school. Christian I h
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Eco Jones wrote: Why in your mind is individuality so utterly linked to what you wear? Because it sends a message that their individuality is being controlled and suppressed. Eco Jones wrote: The Gap is a 'trendy' clothing store with high recognition in North America. Fair enough. As you say yourself, not all kids would care, and as I said, the ones that do will still go there. That is how THEY express themself, and enforced uniforms won't stop that. Eco Jones wrote: School is about education. An important lesson is that people can dress differently than you and still be worth knowing. How would one learn that if everyone dressed the same ? Eco Jones wrote: Forcing kids to dress the same and interact for an extended period of time will help to enforce that lesson. You're gonna make them be friends ? So I would have been told to cut my hair too, I presume, so that there was no sign of me being any different to anyone else in the school ? Eco Jones wrote: Society pressures kids to 'fit in or be cast out of the herd.' Biology has bred into us 'to be cast out of the herd is death.' Advertisers program 'fit in by having this stuff.' The pressure to conform already exists. Uniforms take at least part of that pressure away. I'd rather my kids learn to be intelligent consumers. The problem still begins and ends in the home, as far as I am concerned. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: Because it sends a message that their individuality is being controlled and suppressed. So what? Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Christian Graus wrote: That is how THEY express themself, and enforced uniforms won't stop that. If someone really wants to do it, then they will. Everyone else in the school is now able to care a little less about that and more about things they want to care about. Christian Graus wrote: How would one learn that if everyone dressed the same ? Because like you said, there's 'free dress days,' and there's meeting school friends outside of school, isn't there? ;P Frankly, if you teach your kids the best way to be individuals is to dress slightly differently than anyone else, they're going to be pretty boring when they grow up. Eco
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If you don't want kids to compete at all, might as well take away all extracurricular activites such as sports and chess team, take away the whole grading system and make sure to let more idiots get their undeserved high school diplomas. It sucks to be made fun of or beat up because of what you believe in (hey I was given shit for being an Atheist in a public school), but I do believe that kids still need a sense of indiviuality in their lives. If they're made to believe things are only a set way and that they can't think individually when they are sorrounded by their peers, they feel like there is little hope for them otherwise in the world. And if they truly have something they believe in, thehn get criticised for it, they must learn to conform, or stand up for themselves. That's what seperates themselves from the others. I don't believe in facism in any way. Whether you go to public or private school, you have to deal facism one or another. And doing your best to not have to conform to those facist beliefs is what makes you a true individual.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
nssone wrote: If you don't want kids to compete at all, might as well take away all extracurricular activites That is extreme. I never mentioned anything that stupid. Having all the children wear a uniform is so that they are not judged based on how quickly parents can afford to replenish the child's wardrobe with the latest fashion - Clothes in shops like GAP cost a lot more than a school uniform. Removal of football colours (or other forms of "gang" symbols) remove the "red rag in front of the bull" effect you might get in cities like Glasgow where football teams have a very heavy religious and political bias (Rangers = Protestant and Unionist; Celtic = Catholic and Irish Nationalist). In some areas Glasgow has a watered down version of the "troubles" in Northern Ireland. Kids have been stabbed for wearing the wrong colours in the wrong part of town. That sort of intolerant attitude has no place in a school. The separation of state and church should ensure that a school has no part in a child's religious up-bringing. That is purely the responsibility of the parent. I remember being taken to church with the rest of my class on certain religious holidays. Although some children's parents thought strongly enough about it to disallow their child from taking part. Politics shouldn't have a part in the education system either. Now, I must clarify that a bit. In my original post I mentioned an interpretation exercise called "In the Blue Corner and in the Red Corner" and that could have been taught in a neutral way. A question like "Which party grants the greater freedom?" is loaded because it depends how you view the world. A more neutral question would have been more acceptable. For example: "In which ways do each party grant freedom to individuals?". So, what I am saying is that if a topic arises that could have a political bias it must be taught in a balanced way. I really get irritated when I hear some environmental news story and they interview a bunch of primary school kids who all parrot "Electric cars are cleaner because they don't give off green house gasses which are bad"... So where does this electricity magically come from then?! Back to your original comment... Competing is fine. Competition is great for school children to participate in, but it must be done on merit and not on who has the coolest designer clothes. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, th
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There's a great debate there about the necessity to make a new law forbidding schoolboys and schoolgirls to wear ostentatious religious signs (cf. http://www.swisspolitics.org/en/news/index.php?section=int&page=news_inhalt&news_id=4521696[^]) What's your opinion on the subject?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
I agree with a lot of the earlier posts that, in general, the state should not try to regulate religious-themed clothing which is an expression of their own beliefs. I also think that having a secular democracy means that the state does not try to push a particular religious belief - when individuals are the source of religious expression, it doesn't fall into the category of "violating the separation of church and state". However, those ideas seem nice and good as long as we can think about them abstractly and without context. To bring things back to reality a little bit, there is some trouble getting Muslims to integrate into the mainstream. This produces a minority situation which can irritate people in the minority and the mainstream, and can help generate divergent views and lifestyles. For Muslims, the veil is generally put into the context of "being a good Muslim". Hence, Muslim girls who don't wear the veil can be easily identified as "bad Muslims". The veil can also introduce barriers to personal contact with non-Muslims. This may also be part of the intention - since religious Muslims probably loathe French sexual expression. Hence, when a Muslim cleric pushes Muslims to wear the veil, he is also building barriers to French liberalization (which he believes is bad), and as a side-effect, prevents integration with French society. The ultimate effect is that they maintain a foreign culture on French soil. This lack of contact can lead to stereotyped views on both sides and makes both sides more vulnerable to propaganda. When people say "if we ban the veil, then we should ban nuns from wearing their religious clothing, too", they are right based on the principle of "being equal to everyone", but when you look at the world of realities, rather than principles, banning the Muslim veil affects society in a different way than banning a nun's religious clothing. If the intention is to head-off problems in the future and avoid friction between different groups in society, then the practical measure of banning the Muslim veil may be the way to go. Should you prefer principles to realities, even if doing so exacerabates societal problems, then don't ban the Muslim veil. ------------------------------------------ The ousted but stubbornly non-dead leader reportedly released an audiotape this weekend, ending by calling on Iraqis to, quote, "resist the occupation in any way you can, from writing on walls, to boycotting, to demonstrating and taking up arms." adding, "you know, pretty much a
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nssone wrote: I don't believe in facism in any way. Are you for fucking real? Yeah, let's let the kids vote for changes to the education system democractic-republic style, because after all, they have the knowledge and experience to make informed choices. Waitaminute, that's why they're at school to begin with - to get knowledge and experience. And part of that knowledge should certainly be learning that judging people on appearances is not a productive thing to do, and that individuality doesn't have to be about wearing a slightly different braclet than Tammy or buying green sweatpants from the Gap(tm) and not Old Navy(tm). Eco
So you don't have a brain until you're 18 and graduated from high school? Until then you're just a fucking robot for the school to program? Fuck that! There are a lot of adults out that make uninformed decissions also, so don't try to fingerpoint the kids on this one. We judge people no matter what, so what does it matter if they what they wear or believe? Sure, they still don't have the knowledge to make informed decisions or vote, but they're still frikkin human beings. And yes, the school system is a facist system, even in college. I have to deal with liberal facism in my Contemporary American Society (Sociology) class.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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Christian Graus wrote: Because it sends a message that their individuality is being controlled and suppressed. So what? Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Christian Graus wrote: That is how THEY express themself, and enforced uniforms won't stop that. If someone really wants to do it, then they will. Everyone else in the school is now able to care a little less about that and more about things they want to care about. Christian Graus wrote: How would one learn that if everyone dressed the same ? Because like you said, there's 'free dress days,' and there's meeting school friends outside of school, isn't there? ;P Frankly, if you teach your kids the best way to be individuals is to dress slightly differently than anyone else, they're going to be pretty boring when they grow up. Eco
Eco Jones wrote: Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Spot the man with no children. Or no clue. Or both. Eco Jones wrote: If someone really wants to do it, then they will. Which, in the USA, means finding daddy's gun and going to WalMart for some ammo. Good plan. Eco Jones wrote: Because like you said, there's 'free dress days,' and there's meeting school friends outside of school, isn't there? Which TOTALLY negate any of the benefits you are trying to percieve here, Eco Jones wrote: Frankly, if you teach your kids the best way to be individuals is to dress slightly differently than anyone else, they're going to be pretty boring when they grow up. Once again, spot the guy with no kids. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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So you don't have a brain until you're 18 and graduated from high school? Until then you're just a fucking robot for the school to program? Fuck that! There are a lot of adults out that make uninformed decissions also, so don't try to fingerpoint the kids on this one. We judge people no matter what, so what does it matter if they what they wear or believe? Sure, they still don't have the knowledge to make informed decisions or vote, but they're still frikkin human beings. And yes, the school system is a facist system, even in college. I have to deal with liberal facism in my Contemporary American Society (Sociology) class.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
nssone wrote: There are a lot of adults out that make uninformed decissions also Adults are responsible for their "uninformed decissions". Children are not. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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Christian Graus wrote: act the same ? Beyond acceptable codes of behaviour for an educational setting, they can 'act' however they want. And they do. Why in your mind is individuality so utterly linked to what you wear? Christian Graus wrote: What's that ? The Gap is a 'trendy' clothing store with high recognition in North America. Christian Graus wrote: Not every kid feels pressured to wear designer clothes, you know Designer? No. Clothes appropriate to their 'image?' Yes. Christian Graus wrote: went to several schools and I never once felt any pressure to wear anything apart from what I wanted to ( blue jeans and a Metallica t-shirt ). That was _your_ image. And there were people who probably wouldn't have talked to you or gotten to know you because you dressed like that. School is about education. An important lesson is that people can dress differently than you and still be worth knowing. Forcing kids to dress the same and interact for an extended period of time will help to enforce that lesson. Society pressures kids to 'fit in or be cast out of the herd.' Biology has bred into us 'to be cast out of the herd is death.' Advertisers program 'fit in by having this stuff.' The pressure to conform already exists. Uniforms take at least part of that pressure away. Eco
Eco Jones wrote: Why in your mind is individuality so utterly linked to what you wear? Because the majority of human beings have eye balls? Humans make judgements based on their perceptions. We judge music because we don't like what we hear. We judge food becuase we don't like what we smell or tatse. We judge clothing and furniture because of how it feel against our bodies. And visual percpetions is one of the strongest and fastest processes of making judgements as human beings. It is just the way our brains work (for those that are not visually impaired).
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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nssone wrote: There are a lot of adults out that make uninformed decissions also Adults are responsible for their "uninformed decissions". Children are not. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
Then why aren't the parents being sent to detention along with their kids? All they get is a note and sometimes a parent-teacher conference. Adults still make decisions without feeling responsible for them.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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Eco Jones wrote: Why in your mind is individuality so utterly linked to what you wear? Because the majority of human beings have eye balls? Humans make judgements based on their perceptions. We judge music because we don't like what we hear. We judge food becuase we don't like what we smell or tatse. We judge clothing and furniture because of how it feel against our bodies. And visual percpetions is one of the strongest and fastest processes of making judgements as human beings. It is just the way our brains work (for those that are not visually impaired).
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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I have no problem with people wearing symbols of their faith in public, nor with public institutions displaying religious symbols, so long as there is no government pressure applied to influence the beliefs of the people. We have periodic flaps here when some nutcase or other decides that religious quotes on buildings, or religious words spoken in a public school somehow violate the principle of separation. We also get nonsense like this case over traditional garb worn to school or work. Humbug! If we ban symbols of religious faith in public, then we should ban t-shirts that advertise beer, as well. There is absolutely no difference, except perhaps that the beer ads are more blatant. Chirac is, in this instance, clearly attempting to stomp on the Islamic faith and is extending the ban to all religious symbols to cover it up. What a transparent ninny - why do you put up with him? He can't even properly oppress minorities! "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: I have no problem with people wearing symbols of their faith in public, nor with public institutions displaying religious symbols, so long as there is no government pressure applied to influence the beliefs of the people. Totally agree with this. The government can be religiously neutral and the people in the government and the community can still have a faith. Roger Wright wrote: ... somehow violate the principle of separation. If you actually read amendment #1 "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ....." To me that very clearly says the US Federal Government may not endorse or prohibit religious expression of the people. No matter where they may be. The word separation is in a private letter, not in any laws. I will also state I believe you can not "not have a religion" as an individual. So trying to deny religious expressions by the government is the same thing as atheism being the national religion. "Don't be so anti-american, would you? KaЯl (to Paul Watson on Baseball Bats) 26 Nov '03 "
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nssone wrote: We judge clothing and furniture because of how it feel against our bodies. :omg: Get a clue. Teenagers judge clothing by what image it projects... period! All I've ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work.
Do we not also judge clothing by how it feels? Sure, we can ignore how it feels because of how it looks? I am no stranger to being judged by what I wore. I used to just wear jeans and metal bands shirts. But you're also talking to a person who had little to no place in school period. But I also had friend who were quite different from me and wore different clothing than me. Even as adults, we still judge clothing by what image we project. I can't remember the last time I've seen a corporate executive wear blue jeans and a Metallica shirt to a business meeting. It would make him look low-class. And I'm in martial arts also. Your image is often defined by your uniform also. If you have a dirty uniform, you are then judge as undisciplined in keeping your uniform clean and maintained. No matter what we do, we all fall into a uniformal dress code in our society. When those of us who go into the business world, we have to conform to a business or business casual dress code. High school is sort fo a last hurrah for those of which want to be ourselves when sorrounded by our everyday peers. School is really your last chance to be yourself without truly risking your career or reputation.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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Eco Jones wrote: Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Spot the man with no children. Or no clue. Or both. Eco Jones wrote: If someone really wants to do it, then they will. Which, in the USA, means finding daddy's gun and going to WalMart for some ammo. Good plan. Eco Jones wrote: Because like you said, there's 'free dress days,' and there's meeting school friends outside of school, isn't there? Which TOTALLY negate any of the benefits you are trying to percieve here, Eco Jones wrote: Frankly, if you teach your kids the best way to be individuals is to dress slightly differently than anyone else, they're going to be pretty boring when they grow up. Once again, spot the guy with no kids. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: Spot the man with no children. Or no clue. Or both. Spot the man with the "best children in the world." Geez, why do parents think they have the best insight into all kids? The only kids they ever really deal with on an extended basis are their own, which they think can then be extrapolated to all kids everywhere. Know why this doesn't work? Because kids are individuals. But if you really feel the need to play the 'this-argument-is-over-because-i-cant-be-logical-because-im-a-parent' card, then go right ahead. ;) Christian Graus wrote: Which TOTALLY negate any of the benefits you are trying to percieve here, Ya know, if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize that I was pointing out the opposite. Thanks for playing. Eco
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Christian Graus wrote: Spot the man with no children. Or no clue. Or both. Spot the man with the "best children in the world." Geez, why do parents think they have the best insight into all kids? The only kids they ever really deal with on an extended basis are their own, which they think can then be extrapolated to all kids everywhere. Know why this doesn't work? Because kids are individuals. But if you really feel the need to play the 'this-argument-is-over-because-i-cant-be-logical-because-im-a-parent' card, then go right ahead. ;) Christian Graus wrote: Which TOTALLY negate any of the benefits you are trying to percieve here, Ya know, if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize that I was pointing out the opposite. Thanks for playing. Eco
Eco Jones wrote: Geez, why do parents think they have the best insight into all kids? The only kids they ever really deal with on an extended basis are their own, which they think can then be extrapolated to all kids everywhere. Know why this doesn't work? Because kids are individuals. Fair dinkum, I hate it when people with no kids presume from a distance to know *all* about kids. How many kids do YOU know on an 'extended basis' ? I know a lot more than my own, it's called getting involved in my kids lives. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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Christian Graus wrote: Because it sends a message that their individuality is being controlled and suppressed. So what? Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Christian Graus wrote: That is how THEY express themself, and enforced uniforms won't stop that. If someone really wants to do it, then they will. Everyone else in the school is now able to care a little less about that and more about things they want to care about. Christian Graus wrote: How would one learn that if everyone dressed the same ? Because like you said, there's 'free dress days,' and there's meeting school friends outside of school, isn't there? ;P Frankly, if you teach your kids the best way to be individuals is to dress slightly differently than anyone else, they're going to be pretty boring when they grow up. Eco
Eco Jones wrote: Christian Graus wrote: Because it sends a message that their individuality is being controlled and suppressed. So what? Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Read my post that's lower lower down the page and you'll see how wrong you are with that statement.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com