Religous signs
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There's a great debate there about the necessity to make a new law forbidding schoolboys and schoolgirls to wear ostentatious religious signs (cf. http://www.swisspolitics.org/en/news/index.php?section=int&page=news_inhalt&news_id=4521696[^]) What's your opinion on the subject?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
I agree with a lot of the earlier posts that, in general, the state should not try to regulate religious-themed clothing which is an expression of their own beliefs. I also think that having a secular democracy means that the state does not try to push a particular religious belief - when individuals are the source of religious expression, it doesn't fall into the category of "violating the separation of church and state". However, those ideas seem nice and good as long as we can think about them abstractly and without context. To bring things back to reality a little bit, there is some trouble getting Muslims to integrate into the mainstream. This produces a minority situation which can irritate people in the minority and the mainstream, and can help generate divergent views and lifestyles. For Muslims, the veil is generally put into the context of "being a good Muslim". Hence, Muslim girls who don't wear the veil can be easily identified as "bad Muslims". The veil can also introduce barriers to personal contact with non-Muslims. This may also be part of the intention - since religious Muslims probably loathe French sexual expression. Hence, when a Muslim cleric pushes Muslims to wear the veil, he is also building barriers to French liberalization (which he believes is bad), and as a side-effect, prevents integration with French society. The ultimate effect is that they maintain a foreign culture on French soil. This lack of contact can lead to stereotyped views on both sides and makes both sides more vulnerable to propaganda. When people say "if we ban the veil, then we should ban nuns from wearing their religious clothing, too", they are right based on the principle of "being equal to everyone", but when you look at the world of realities, rather than principles, banning the Muslim veil affects society in a different way than banning a nun's religious clothing. If the intention is to head-off problems in the future and avoid friction between different groups in society, then the practical measure of banning the Muslim veil may be the way to go. Should you prefer principles to realities, even if doing so exacerabates societal problems, then don't ban the Muslim veil. ------------------------------------------ The ousted but stubbornly non-dead leader reportedly released an audiotape this weekend, ending by calling on Iraqis to, quote, "resist the occupation in any way you can, from writing on walls, to boycotting, to demonstrating and taking up arms." adding, "you know, pretty much a
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nssone wrote: I don't believe in facism in any way. Are you for fucking real? Yeah, let's let the kids vote for changes to the education system democractic-republic style, because after all, they have the knowledge and experience to make informed choices. Waitaminute, that's why they're at school to begin with - to get knowledge and experience. And part of that knowledge should certainly be learning that judging people on appearances is not a productive thing to do, and that individuality doesn't have to be about wearing a slightly different braclet than Tammy or buying green sweatpants from the Gap(tm) and not Old Navy(tm). Eco
So you don't have a brain until you're 18 and graduated from high school? Until then you're just a fucking robot for the school to program? Fuck that! There are a lot of adults out that make uninformed decissions also, so don't try to fingerpoint the kids on this one. We judge people no matter what, so what does it matter if they what they wear or believe? Sure, they still don't have the knowledge to make informed decisions or vote, but they're still frikkin human beings. And yes, the school system is a facist system, even in college. I have to deal with liberal facism in my Contemporary American Society (Sociology) class.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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Christian Graus wrote: Because it sends a message that their individuality is being controlled and suppressed. So what? Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Christian Graus wrote: That is how THEY express themself, and enforced uniforms won't stop that. If someone really wants to do it, then they will. Everyone else in the school is now able to care a little less about that and more about things they want to care about. Christian Graus wrote: How would one learn that if everyone dressed the same ? Because like you said, there's 'free dress days,' and there's meeting school friends outside of school, isn't there? ;P Frankly, if you teach your kids the best way to be individuals is to dress slightly differently than anyone else, they're going to be pretty boring when they grow up. Eco
Eco Jones wrote: Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Spot the man with no children. Or no clue. Or both. Eco Jones wrote: If someone really wants to do it, then they will. Which, in the USA, means finding daddy's gun and going to WalMart for some ammo. Good plan. Eco Jones wrote: Because like you said, there's 'free dress days,' and there's meeting school friends outside of school, isn't there? Which TOTALLY negate any of the benefits you are trying to percieve here, Eco Jones wrote: Frankly, if you teach your kids the best way to be individuals is to dress slightly differently than anyone else, they're going to be pretty boring when they grow up. Once again, spot the guy with no kids. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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So you don't have a brain until you're 18 and graduated from high school? Until then you're just a fucking robot for the school to program? Fuck that! There are a lot of adults out that make uninformed decissions also, so don't try to fingerpoint the kids on this one. We judge people no matter what, so what does it matter if they what they wear or believe? Sure, they still don't have the knowledge to make informed decisions or vote, but they're still frikkin human beings. And yes, the school system is a facist system, even in college. I have to deal with liberal facism in my Contemporary American Society (Sociology) class.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
nssone wrote: There are a lot of adults out that make uninformed decissions also Adults are responsible for their "uninformed decissions". Children are not. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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Christian Graus wrote: act the same ? Beyond acceptable codes of behaviour for an educational setting, they can 'act' however they want. And they do. Why in your mind is individuality so utterly linked to what you wear? Christian Graus wrote: What's that ? The Gap is a 'trendy' clothing store with high recognition in North America. Christian Graus wrote: Not every kid feels pressured to wear designer clothes, you know Designer? No. Clothes appropriate to their 'image?' Yes. Christian Graus wrote: went to several schools and I never once felt any pressure to wear anything apart from what I wanted to ( blue jeans and a Metallica t-shirt ). That was _your_ image. And there were people who probably wouldn't have talked to you or gotten to know you because you dressed like that. School is about education. An important lesson is that people can dress differently than you and still be worth knowing. Forcing kids to dress the same and interact for an extended period of time will help to enforce that lesson. Society pressures kids to 'fit in or be cast out of the herd.' Biology has bred into us 'to be cast out of the herd is death.' Advertisers program 'fit in by having this stuff.' The pressure to conform already exists. Uniforms take at least part of that pressure away. Eco
Eco Jones wrote: Why in your mind is individuality so utterly linked to what you wear? Because the majority of human beings have eye balls? Humans make judgements based on their perceptions. We judge music because we don't like what we hear. We judge food becuase we don't like what we smell or tatse. We judge clothing and furniture because of how it feel against our bodies. And visual percpetions is one of the strongest and fastest processes of making judgements as human beings. It is just the way our brains work (for those that are not visually impaired).
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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nssone wrote: There are a lot of adults out that make uninformed decissions also Adults are responsible for their "uninformed decissions". Children are not. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
Then why aren't the parents being sent to detention along with their kids? All they get is a note and sometimes a parent-teacher conference. Adults still make decisions without feeling responsible for them.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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Eco Jones wrote: Why in your mind is individuality so utterly linked to what you wear? Because the majority of human beings have eye balls? Humans make judgements based on their perceptions. We judge music because we don't like what we hear. We judge food becuase we don't like what we smell or tatse. We judge clothing and furniture because of how it feel against our bodies. And visual percpetions is one of the strongest and fastest processes of making judgements as human beings. It is just the way our brains work (for those that are not visually impaired).
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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I have no problem with people wearing symbols of their faith in public, nor with public institutions displaying religious symbols, so long as there is no government pressure applied to influence the beliefs of the people. We have periodic flaps here when some nutcase or other decides that religious quotes on buildings, or religious words spoken in a public school somehow violate the principle of separation. We also get nonsense like this case over traditional garb worn to school or work. Humbug! If we ban symbols of religious faith in public, then we should ban t-shirts that advertise beer, as well. There is absolutely no difference, except perhaps that the beer ads are more blatant. Chirac is, in this instance, clearly attempting to stomp on the Islamic faith and is extending the ban to all religious symbols to cover it up. What a transparent ninny - why do you put up with him? He can't even properly oppress minorities! "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: I have no problem with people wearing symbols of their faith in public, nor with public institutions displaying religious symbols, so long as there is no government pressure applied to influence the beliefs of the people. Totally agree with this. The government can be religiously neutral and the people in the government and the community can still have a faith. Roger Wright wrote: ... somehow violate the principle of separation. If you actually read amendment #1 "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ....." To me that very clearly says the US Federal Government may not endorse or prohibit religious expression of the people. No matter where they may be. The word separation is in a private letter, not in any laws. I will also state I believe you can not "not have a religion" as an individual. So trying to deny religious expressions by the government is the same thing as atheism being the national religion. "Don't be so anti-american, would you? KaЯl (to Paul Watson on Baseball Bats) 26 Nov '03 "
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Eco Jones wrote: Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Spot the man with no children. Or no clue. Or both. Eco Jones wrote: If someone really wants to do it, then they will. Which, in the USA, means finding daddy's gun and going to WalMart for some ammo. Good plan. Eco Jones wrote: Because like you said, there's 'free dress days,' and there's meeting school friends outside of school, isn't there? Which TOTALLY negate any of the benefits you are trying to percieve here, Eco Jones wrote: Frankly, if you teach your kids the best way to be individuals is to dress slightly differently than anyone else, they're going to be pretty boring when they grow up. Once again, spot the guy with no kids. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: Spot the man with no children. Or no clue. Or both. Spot the man with the "best children in the world." Geez, why do parents think they have the best insight into all kids? The only kids they ever really deal with on an extended basis are their own, which they think can then be extrapolated to all kids everywhere. Know why this doesn't work? Because kids are individuals. But if you really feel the need to play the 'this-argument-is-over-because-i-cant-be-logical-because-im-a-parent' card, then go right ahead. ;) Christian Graus wrote: Which TOTALLY negate any of the benefits you are trying to percieve here, Ya know, if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize that I was pointing out the opposite. Thanks for playing. Eco
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nssone wrote: We judge clothing and furniture because of how it feel against our bodies. :omg: Get a clue. Teenagers judge clothing by what image it projects... period! All I've ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work.
Do we not also judge clothing by how it feels? Sure, we can ignore how it feels because of how it looks? I am no stranger to being judged by what I wore. I used to just wear jeans and metal bands shirts. But you're also talking to a person who had little to no place in school period. But I also had friend who were quite different from me and wore different clothing than me. Even as adults, we still judge clothing by what image we project. I can't remember the last time I've seen a corporate executive wear blue jeans and a Metallica shirt to a business meeting. It would make him look low-class. And I'm in martial arts also. Your image is often defined by your uniform also. If you have a dirty uniform, you are then judge as undisciplined in keeping your uniform clean and maintained. No matter what we do, we all fall into a uniformal dress code in our society. When those of us who go into the business world, we have to conform to a business or business casual dress code. High school is sort fo a last hurrah for those of which want to be ourselves when sorrounded by our everyday peers. School is really your last chance to be yourself without truly risking your career or reputation.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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Christian Graus wrote: Spot the man with no children. Or no clue. Or both. Spot the man with the "best children in the world." Geez, why do parents think they have the best insight into all kids? The only kids they ever really deal with on an extended basis are their own, which they think can then be extrapolated to all kids everywhere. Know why this doesn't work? Because kids are individuals. But if you really feel the need to play the 'this-argument-is-over-because-i-cant-be-logical-because-im-a-parent' card, then go right ahead. ;) Christian Graus wrote: Which TOTALLY negate any of the benefits you are trying to percieve here, Ya know, if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize that I was pointing out the opposite. Thanks for playing. Eco
Eco Jones wrote: Geez, why do parents think they have the best insight into all kids? The only kids they ever really deal with on an extended basis are their own, which they think can then be extrapolated to all kids everywhere. Know why this doesn't work? Because kids are individuals. Fair dinkum, I hate it when people with no kids presume from a distance to know *all* about kids. How many kids do YOU know on an 'extended basis' ? I know a lot more than my own, it's called getting involved in my kids lives. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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Christian Graus wrote: Because it sends a message that their individuality is being controlled and suppressed. So what? Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Christian Graus wrote: That is how THEY express themself, and enforced uniforms won't stop that. If someone really wants to do it, then they will. Everyone else in the school is now able to care a little less about that and more about things they want to care about. Christian Graus wrote: How would one learn that if everyone dressed the same ? Because like you said, there's 'free dress days,' and there's meeting school friends outside of school, isn't there? ;P Frankly, if you teach your kids the best way to be individuals is to dress slightly differently than anyone else, they're going to be pretty boring when they grow up. Eco
Eco Jones wrote: Christian Graus wrote: Because it sends a message that their individuality is being controlled and suppressed. So what? Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Read my post that's lower lower down the page and you'll see how wrong you are with that statement.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
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Roger Wright wrote: If we ban symbols of religious faith in public, then we should ban t-shirts that advertise beer, as well. In most public schools (in the US) t-shirts that advertise beer are banned. :rolleyes: Roger Wright wrote: Chirac is, in this instance, clearly attempting to stomp on the Islamic faith and is extending the ban to all religious symbols to cover it up. Sounds like you spent a little too much time in California. ;P Sometimes tolerance doesn't mean letting everybody do anything. Take away the veil and the "little muslim girl" becomes the "little girl". Take away the gold cross and the "little catholic girl" becomes the "little girl". Take away the yarmulke and the "little jewish boy" becomes a "little boy". The fewer stereotypes and biases we place between children and learning the better. All I've ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work.
Mike Mullikin wrote: Sometimes tolerance doesn't mean letting everybody do anything. Take away the veil and the "little muslim girl" becomes the "little girl". There really needs to be an undo here. Type it again. :mad: I agree with tolerance does not mean “letting everybody do anything.” But your veil comment goes to far. I work with a Muslim Lady and she wishes to be judged by her work not her beauty. What right do I have to not respect that. What if we take that on a different route. Lets ban clothing from the waist up, or ban covering your thighs! In one culture one is nothing and it is very offensive in another. I would prefer to be exposed to other cultures and learn from them, than to ban their existence in mine. "Don't be so anti-american, would you? KaЯl (to Paul Watson on Baseball Bats) 26 Nov '03 "
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Then why aren't the parents being sent to detention along with their kids? All they get is a note and sometimes a parent-teacher conference. Adults still make decisions without feeling responsible for them.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
nssone wrote: Then why aren't the parents being sent to detention along with their kids? It depends on the juristiction. I believe that in England and Wales that parents get fined for their children's constant bad behaviour, the fine can be waived if the parents agree to participate in a good parenting programme. nssone wrote: Adults still make decisions without feeling responsible for them Whether they feel responsible for them or not is a different matter. They are still responsible for their desisions. Adults can face penalties for what they do. Children don't face the same sort of penalties. As a child grows the penalties they face grow too. Somewhere around the ages of 10 to 12 a child can be held responsible for murder, before that age the law considers that the child does not have a great enough grasp of "right and wrong" and "cause and effect" to be held fully responsible. Bringing this back round to the original topic. "Gang" colours in schools are like the "red rag to a bull". Children mirror what the see at home. Pubs often ban "Football Colours" because it incites violence. For the same reason so should schools. If the father is violent towards supporters of opposing football teams in the pub, so will the child be in the school. Remove the "red rag", allow the children to get on with each other. When one day they do find out the "horrible truth" they will realise it doesn't matter. If on the first meeting they see each other wearing opposing colours then a friendship, a bridge of understanging, might not be built. It takes effort to destroy a bridge - it must be done deliberately. It takes no effort not to build it in the first place. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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Eco Jones wrote: Geez, why do parents think they have the best insight into all kids? The only kids they ever really deal with on an extended basis are their own, which they think can then be extrapolated to all kids everywhere. Know why this doesn't work? Because kids are individuals. Fair dinkum, I hate it when people with no kids presume from a distance to know *all* about kids. How many kids do YOU know on an 'extended basis' ? I know a lot more than my own, it's called getting involved in my kids lives. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
The education system has less to do with dealing with kids as individuals and more to do with dealing with kids as a distinct sociological group. I could know 500 kids individually and it wouldn't really matter. As a parent, it's _your_ job to foster their individuality. The school's responsibility is to give the kids the skills and lessons and access to resources they need to succeed in the world. And I contend that one of those lessons should be to not to judge on appearance; I contend that uniforms help that lesson, I contend that if parents don't teach that lesson (and many don't because they're as easily manipulated as their kids with respect to rampant consumerism) then the school system should at least try. And I've been getting a little snarky, I apologize. :) Eco
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Eco Jones wrote: Christian Graus wrote: Because it sends a message that their individuality is being controlled and suppressed. So what? Kids are generally remarkably naive about the world, that's why they're in school. So they learn that individuality has nothing to do with how you dress. Presto! Education! Read my post that's lower lower down the page and you'll see how wrong you are with that statement.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
nssone wrote: Read my post that's lower lower down the page and you'll see how wrong you are with that statement. Which post, brainiac? I'm not a friggin' mind reader, and if you don't have time to directly address my point, I'm sure not gonna make time to discuss it with you. ;P Eco
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Do we not also judge clothing by how it feels? Sure, we can ignore how it feels because of how it looks? I am no stranger to being judged by what I wore. I used to just wear jeans and metal bands shirts. But you're also talking to a person who had little to no place in school period. But I also had friend who were quite different from me and wore different clothing than me. Even as adults, we still judge clothing by what image we project. I can't remember the last time I've seen a corporate executive wear blue jeans and a Metallica shirt to a business meeting. It would make him look low-class. And I'm in martial arts also. Your image is often defined by your uniform also. If you have a dirty uniform, you are then judge as undisciplined in keeping your uniform clean and maintained. No matter what we do, we all fall into a uniformal dress code in our society. When those of us who go into the business world, we have to conform to a business or business casual dress code. High school is sort fo a last hurrah for those of which want to be ourselves when sorrounded by our everyday peers. School is really your last chance to be yourself without truly risking your career or reputation.
Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school (especially this semester). Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com
nssone wrote: School is really your last chance to be yourself without truly risking your career or reputation. If you actually believe this, then you're going to have a really boring life. Having some responsibility doesn't take away from who you are, it just means you can't be a lazy asshole and suffer no change in lifestyle. Eco
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BadJerry wrote: ganging I mistread this word at first, and then the mental image I saw forced me to verify. Thanks God, I was wrong! :rolleyes: BadJerry wrote: I am ganging against you with Terry Shame, shame on you! ;):laugh:
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
KaЯl wrote: BadJerry wrote: ganging I mistread this word at first, and then the mental image I saw forced me to verify. Thanks God, I was wrong! I don't get it - what did you think it said????
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There's a great debate there about the necessity to make a new law forbidding schoolboys and schoolgirls to wear ostentatious religious signs (cf. http://www.swisspolitics.org/en/news/index.php?section=int&page=news_inhalt&news_id=4521696[^]) What's your opinion on the subject?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
So this means that jewish schoolboys cannot wear skullcaps ? Its esaier to do something like this than look at the root problems they have there I suppose which is disappointing :( The tigress is here :-D
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Terry O`Nolley wrote: Just because a school is public doesn't mean it should ban religious expression amongst the students Isn't it nonetheless the best way to keep the system secular, and let religious conflicts as outside of school as possible? Can a secular school tolerate religious propaganda?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
KaЯl wrote: Isn't it nonetheless the best way to keep the system secular Not at all. A school system is secular if it doesn't promote one religion above others and if the school doesn't conduct religious rituals. A child wearing a cross or a t-shirt with a menorrah doesn't transform the system into a religious school. A religious t-shirt or piece of jewelry is no more provocative then wearing a t-shirt of a band that others might not like. It should be up to the system to determine a dress code, but singling out religious symbols for banning doesn't seem to make sense.