English Language Question
-
Hi, I'm proof-reading some software documentation written in English right now and came to wonder about a thing. I'm Swedish and now starting to hestitate on a grammatical matter. I don't know what the English term for this is, but if I translate it from Swedish we get "indefinite article" and it concerns "a" and "an". What's the rule there? I've always thought that the general rule is "a" before words beginning with a consonant ("a car") and "an" before words beginning with a vowel ("an apple"). But in addition I'm imaginaing that there's an exception to the rule, which are words beginning with a consonant, but the word beginning sounds like a vowel (why can't I think of an example right now...?) Am I completeley out in the green or is there any substance in my exception-assumption? :~ -- The Blog: Bits and Pieces
Generally if a vowel sound starts the next word use 'an'. For example, "an owl". Though when described by an adjective starting with a consonant sound it changes to "a". "a brown owl" BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
Also a good one is, should it be 'this data' or these data'?
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Neils Bohr
these data, or this set of data. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
these data, or this set of data. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The StovesYes, I prefer 'these data' which is correct, but nowadays 'this data' seems to be acceptable. Actually yesterday I bough a book, 'The Adventure of English' by Melvin Bragg which goes into arcane syntax like this, the TV series, based on this book was fascinating.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Neils Bohr
-
Also a good one is, should it be 'this data' or these data'?
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Neils Bohr
Strictly speaking, it should be "these data". The word "data" is the plural form of the word "datum" (i.e, one datum, many data). However, as languages evolve over time, it is nowadays not considered to be an error to say "this data". I would never say "this data", though, since to me that is just the same as saying "this apples" or "this cars".
-
Also a good one is, should it be 'this data' or these data'?
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Neils Bohr
Ted Ferenc wrote: should it be 'this data' or these data'? or 'those datum'. ;P Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] Gently arching his fishing rod back he moves the tip forward in a gentle arch releasing the line.... kersplunk [Doug Goulden]
-
Related - is it "an SQL statement" or "a SQL statement"? I would use the former, but people who read 'SQL' as 'sequal' I guess use the latter. Just something that really bugs me... :~
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
Um, but it would be a TCP packet and not an TCP packet. Similarly it would be a UDP packet and not an UDP packet. Isn't the English lanuguage great! :-D Ant. I'm hard, yet soft.
I'm coloured, yet clear.
I'm fruity and sweet.
I'm jelly, what am I? Muse on it further, I shall return! - David Walliams (Little Britain) -
Hi, I'm proof-reading some software documentation written in English right now and came to wonder about a thing. I'm Swedish and now starting to hestitate on a grammatical matter. I don't know what the English term for this is, but if I translate it from Swedish we get "indefinite article" and it concerns "a" and "an". What's the rule there? I've always thought that the general rule is "a" before words beginning with a consonant ("a car") and "an" before words beginning with a vowel ("an apple"). But in addition I'm imaginaing that there's an exception to the rule, which are words beginning with a consonant, but the word beginning sounds like a vowel (why can't I think of an example right now...?) Am I completeley out in the green or is there any substance in my exception-assumption? :~ -- The Blog: Bits and Pieces
(Too many other replies to read, but I'll throw my 2 cents in) The biggest one that most newcomers to the language forget is that letters have word representations also. Therefore, the abbreviations NAACP is actually stated verbablly as "en double a se pe". What I'm saying is that the letter N is represented by the word "en". Therefore, you would say "an NAACP representative" although logically the word begins with a consonant. Cheers, Tom Archer "Use what talents you possess. The woods would be very silent if no birds sang there except those that sang best." - William Blake * Inside C# -Second Edition * Visual C++.NET Bible * Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework
-
Related - is it "an SQL statement" or "a SQL statement"? I would use the former, but people who read 'SQL' as 'sequal' I guess use the latter. Just something that really bugs me... :~
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
It's stated "an SQL statement" when the letters are read separately because the word that represents the letter 'S' is 'es', which begins in a vowel. It's stated "a SQL statement" when the abbreviation is read as a word because the first letter ('S') is a consonant. Cheers, Tom Archer "Use what talents you possess. The woods would be very silent if no birds sang there except those that sang best." - William Blake * Inside C# -Second Edition * Visual C++.NET Bible * Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework
-
Um, but it would be a TCP packet and not an TCP packet. Similarly it would be a UDP packet and not an UDP packet. Isn't the English lanuguage great! :-D Ant. I'm hard, yet soft.
I'm coloured, yet clear.
I'm fruity and sweet.
I'm jelly, what am I? Muse on it further, I shall return! - David Walliams (Little Britain)As Tom says below, 'S' is pronounced 'es' which makes it a vowel sound. You cannot say "a es que ell", it has to be "an es que ell". The problems comes from some people pronouncing SQL as a word, 'sequal', rather than an abbreviation. You cannot pronounce TCP or UDP as words (not without sounding Klingon or Welsh anyway).
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
-
Strictly speaking, it should be "these data". The word "data" is the plural form of the word "datum" (i.e, one datum, many data). However, as languages evolve over time, it is nowadays not considered to be an error to say "this data". I would never say "this data", though, since to me that is just the same as saying "this apples" or "this cars".
I 100% agree. But I do find a lot of people query you, if you say, correctly, 'these data'
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Neils Bohr
-
Try to pronounce it. If your tongue ends up in a knot, then use the other article. ;) Anyway, clearly this a/an choice shouldn't be in the written text. I mean, it's like letting the database layer (written language) dictate the presentation layer (spoken language). -- Weiter, weiter, ins verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben. Are you bright too?[^]
That normally works if you grew up speaking english, but this guy did not, he learned it in school. There is some point in ones life where your brain can no longer learn what should tie the tongue in knots, though you can still to quite well in languages if you learn the rules. Evey beyond that, written language is different. I know many native english speakers who cannot understand a sentence like "The store is their", but when read aloud they have no problem understanding it. (For those who don't have this problem, the correct word to end that sentence is there) I think the origional question has ben answered better than I could.
-
That normally works if you grew up speaking english, but this guy did not, he learned it in school. There is some point in ones life where your brain can no longer learn what should tie the tongue in knots, though you can still to quite well in languages if you learn the rules. Evey beyond that, written language is different. I know many native english speakers who cannot understand a sentence like "The store is their", but when read aloud they have no problem understanding it. (For those who don't have this problem, the correct word to end that sentence is there) I think the origional question has ben answered better than I could.
Henry miller wrote: I know many native english speakers who cannot understand a sentence like "The store is their", Excuse me, but shouldn't it be their's? That should distinguish it phonetically from there. -- Weiter, weiter, ins verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben. Are you bright too?[^]
-
As Tom says below, 'S' is pronounced 'es' which makes it a vowel sound. You cannot say "a es que ell", it has to be "an es que ell". The problems comes from some people pronouncing SQL as a word, 'sequal', rather than an abbreviation. You cannot pronounce TCP or UDP as words (not without sounding Klingon or Welsh anyway).
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
David Wulff wrote: 'S' is pronounced 'es' which makes it a vowel sound This is quite true. I was thinking about the phonetics of it all after posting. :) Ant. I'm hard, yet soft.
I'm coloured, yet clear.
I'm fruity and sweet.
I'm jelly, what am I? Muse on it further, I shall return! - David Walliams (Little Britain) -
Hi, I'm proof-reading some software documentation written in English right now and came to wonder about a thing. I'm Swedish and now starting to hestitate on a grammatical matter. I don't know what the English term for this is, but if I translate it from Swedish we get "indefinite article" and it concerns "a" and "an". What's the rule there? I've always thought that the general rule is "a" before words beginning with a consonant ("a car") and "an" before words beginning with a vowel ("an apple"). But in addition I'm imaginaing that there's an exception to the rule, which are words beginning with a consonant, but the word beginning sounds like a vowel (why can't I think of an example right now...?) Am I completeley out in the green or is there any substance in my exception-assumption? :~ -- The Blog: Bits and Pieces
-
Henry miller wrote: I know many native english speakers who cannot understand a sentence like "The store is their", Excuse me, but shouldn't it be their's? That should distinguish it phonetically from there. -- Weiter, weiter, ins verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben. Are you bright too?[^]
No, it should be their, as in "the store is over their" Remember, I'm trying to create an example of a sentance that is gramativly correct when spoken, but incorrect as written.
-
Related - is it "an SQL statement" or "a SQL statement"? I would use the former, but people who read 'SQL' as 'sequal' I guess use the latter. Just something that really bugs me... :~
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
That's how I treat acronyms as well. I had a discussion on this topic with a former university colleague of mine (academic discussions - :zzz: ;)), and he insisted that it should be "a SQL" no matter how you pronounce it. Personally I think that is plain wrong, because I wouldn't pronounce it that way. The indefinite article in English is badly designed IMO. Oh well, too late to do anything about it now. :) -- Weiter, weiter, ins verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben. Are you bright too?[^]
-
Hi, I'm proof-reading some software documentation written in English right now and came to wonder about a thing. I'm Swedish and now starting to hestitate on a grammatical matter. I don't know what the English term for this is, but if I translate it from Swedish we get "indefinite article" and it concerns "a" and "an". What's the rule there? I've always thought that the general rule is "a" before words beginning with a consonant ("a car") and "an" before words beginning with a vowel ("an apple"). But in addition I'm imaginaing that there's an exception to the rule, which are words beginning with a consonant, but the word beginning sounds like a vowel (why can't I think of an example right now...?) Am I completeley out in the green or is there any substance in my exception-assumption? :~ -- The Blog: Bits and Pieces
I never thought about it before, but here in Canada where we have arguably the world's most neutral usage of the English language it's very common to here AN used for everything and rare to here A used on it's own. In fact now that I think about it anyone saying A Apple would come across as being pretentious and "British-y sounding". Of course all that goes out the window in the written form, but I can't help but think that A is on it's way out the door.
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. - Ambrose Bierce -
>A large percentage of english people would be unlikely to know what an indefinite article was, so your use of english puts us to shame! Very true. My sister's boyfriend teaches English to Korean kids (of 5 and 10!) and they are learning English concepts I have only vaguely heard of never mind understood. Indefinite past principle, Indefinite present principle etc. We use the concepts everyday, we just don't know their labels or know how to explain them. regards, Paul Watson South Africa Michael Dunn wrote: "except the sod who voted this a 1, NO SOUP FOR YOU" Crikey! ain't life grand?
We got this in English at high school, didn't we?
-
We got this in English at high school, didn't we?
We didn't. I had to look up "first past principle" or whatever it was. When I read the definition I thought "Oh, I use that everyday, just didn't know the terminology." regards, Paul Watson South Africa Michael Dunn wrote: "except the sod who voted this a 1, NO SOUP FOR YOU" Crikey! ain't life grand?
-
Yes, I prefer 'these data' which is correct, but nowadays 'this data' seems to be acceptable. Actually yesterday I bough a book, 'The Adventure of English' by Melvin Bragg which goes into arcane syntax like this, the TV series, based on this book was fascinating.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Neils Bohr
Ted Ferenc wrote: but nowadays 'this data' seems to be acceptable. I think it's just understood to be a set of data, and so accepted. Though I know its technically incorrect I guess I do say this data. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves