which language to start with

[Paul Conrad]

Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:

proof LISP gives you tunnel vision!

:laugh::-D

---

If you try to write that in English, I might be able to understand more than a fraction of it. - Guffa

[Amar Chaudhary]

any links for compiler / ide and any idea about cost

it is good to be important but it is more important to be good

[Christian Graus]

Amar Chaudhary wrote:

for finding a better match for me

Does better mean he doesn't like your current choice ? If he can handle the C# syntax, it's a better choice than VB, because it makes C++ easier to jump to. Whatever he learns, please, for the love of all that's holy, teach him C# on the console prior to teaching him about GUI libraries and event driven coding.  I am in despair that almost no-one seems to do that anymore.

Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert

[El Corazon]

I was joking. :) LISP is ancient, difficult, very symbolic, backwards, and pretty much meant for AI work. I doubt there are more than a handful of programmers on this board who know LISP, and no one would recommend it outside of joke. :-D sorry to lead you astray. :) however, for many languages: http://www.thefreecountry.com/compilers/index.shtml[^] http://www.thefreecountry.com/programming/editors.shtml[^]

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

[Amar Chaudhary]

Christian Graus wrote:

Does better mean he doesn't like your current choice ?

actually i don't have any choice and he had gone through few hundred of options

Christian Graus wrote:

C# on the console

yes i will implement that cause it is easier to learn when there few things distracting :)

it is good to be important but it is more important to be good

[123 0]

Amar Chaudhary wrote:

LOL

Is that "Laugh out Loud" or "Lots of Luck"? Seems a bit ambiguous, even to a human...

[123 0]

Shog9 wrote:

Or Forth. If you can manage to dig up a Forth environment and a copy of Leo Brodie's "Starting Forth". Brillian beginner's book.

Agreed. I've got two copies myself and might be willing to part with one if I thought the person was really serious.

[Amar Chaudhary]

thanks i refer wikipedia and it said "Lisp is the second-oldest high-level programming language in widespread use today" so i asked you :)

it is good to be important but it is more important to be good

[Christian Graus]

Amar Chaudhary wrote:

actually i don't have any choice and he had gone through few hundred of options

ROTFL - just what you need.

Amar Chaudhary wrote:

es i will implement that cause it is easier to learn when there few things distracting

Great.  That was obvious to me when I taught myself C++, but nowadays, people mostly laugh at me for suggesting it.

Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert

[El Corazon]

Amar Chaudhary wrote:

high-level programming language in widespread use today

because it is still used in AI, even more than Prolog even though Prolog was "supposed" to be better, plus it is used in script interpreters for a couple of professional programs which will remain nameless.... It's fun, when you have the right mindset (I think people call me insane when I say things like that), otherwise, it's difficult. :) Personally I find LISP, Forth, Prolog and a few other odd languages intriguing, but I am computer multi-lingual.... Now if only I could learn Spanish.... :rolleyes:

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

[Scott Dorman]

Christian Graus wrote:

Amar Chaudhary wrote: es i will implement that cause it is easier to learn when there few things distracting Great. That was obvious to me when I taught myself C++, but nowadays, people mostly laugh at me for suggesting it.

Perhaps the most important way to learn a new language. Programming GUI's may be the more "glamorous" thing to do, but it distracts you from actually learning how to do things in the language. It's relatively easy to learn that you must attach an event handler to a button (something most of the IDEs do for you anyway) in order to get it to actually do something...it's much harder to learn how to get it to actually do that "something".

----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.

[Amar Chaudhary]

sounds cool a must look :):)

it is good to be important but it is more important to be good

[123 0]

Okay, here's the post you've all been waiting for. Why not Plain English? Your dad will be writing simple programs with it the first day, and won't have to change languages even when he wants to write significant applications like page editors and compilers later on. And we can pretty much guarantee that the syntax he learns - whoops! already knows - won't be obsolete in several years. Besides, as we've mentioned numerous times before, our product was developed with the beginner (as well as the professional) specifically in mind. It's small. Fast. Friendly. Inexpensive. Easy to install. Remarkably simple yet surprisingly deep. And now, to sweeten the pot, let me propose a test. We'll supply a copy of Plain English at no charge, and you set your dad up with some kind of C# environment. After a week or two with each, we ask him what he thinks and post his thoughts here on CodeProject. What do you say - no, let me take that back. What does he say to this offer?

[Christian Graus]

Scott Dorman wrote:

It's relatively easy to learn that you must attach an event handler to a button (something most of the IDEs do for you anyway) in order to get it to actually do something...it's much harder to learn how to get it to actually do that "something".

EXactly.  I hate to say it ( because it's somewhat of a cliche ), but it's true that on MSDN, the VB.NET forums in particular are full of people who won't be told that they need to go back and learn to code, because they made something pretty using drag and drop in the IDE. Then there was the guy who blasted MS in those forums for making VB too hard.  And the guy who asked for a drag and drop interface for C++, so he could program C++, too.

Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert

[El Corazon]

The Grand Negus wrote:

And we can pretty much guarantee that the syntax he learns - whoops! already knows - won't be obsolete in several years.

Sorry, the man looses again! Thank you for playing, better luck next time! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_change[^] Step right up, next person to try for the cupie doll!

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

[Chris Austin]

Python. It has a clean syntax, lots of flexability and, lots of portability.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love

[Christian Graus]

Hey, I have a question.  Reading this made me actually go and look at your site.  I downloaded your demo program, which claims to 'paint in the style of *some artist*'.  Now, to be fair, you do provide the source, so it's easy for someone to look through and see what it does.  But, it is NOT a painting program.  It's an image filter, combined with downloading images from google image search.  The however many lines of code work because of image processing code in the background library.  Given the ability to not count code I'd write as a framework, I could do this in a similar number of lines in C#.  It's also obvious from reading the code ( at least to me ), that the language has it's own strict rules of grammar, making it not that much different from, say, VB.NET.  To handle an event (refresh):   Show everything. Could I instead type Make sure you draw everything if there's a call to do so  because that would also be a 'plain english' way of writing it. I'm just wondering if you factor in to your recommendation that you're recommending another language, with it's own rules of grammar and syntax, and with far less support than the more mainstream languages ? This looks to me like a nice toy for programmers to play with, not something I'd recommend to a beginner, who is then at your personal mercy ( I don't see any PE communities online ? ) Just curious...

Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert

[123 0]

It's a relative thing, Jeffry; be reasonable. I'm able to read English language books written hundreds of years ago; a C# compiler won't compile C++ code written last week. The bulk of English grammar is not going to significantly change in the lifetime of Amar's dad, but C# will almost certainly not compile with whatever Microsoft offers as a development system twenty years from now. Or ten. Or five. One of the reasons we chose English for our compiler is that we knew the development of the PAL would be a decades-long undertaking and we didn't want to have to worry about constantly reworking our code during those years.

[Christian Graus]

Yeah, Python is actually kinda cool.  At least, that's my recollection.

Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert

[El Corazon]

PaulC1972 wrote:

I am hoping my post will summon The Grand Troll for some entertainment

That's some pretty powerful magic you have! worked right on schedule!

_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)