WWII....
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Mr Morden wrote: So that means you are guilty of corruption every time one of your government officials takes a bribe. Even if you didn't elect him ;) very good point!
We are ugly but we have the music Leonhard Cohen [sighist]
peterchen wrote: Even if you didn't elect him Which is this case does not apply, 'cause Hitler had won the election of January 1933, hadn't he ? Y'a cool jouer avec Maradona qui fait tourner gratos dans les vestiaires - Merci Maradona ! - Y'a pas d'quoi ! Ludwig Von 88, "Goal Di Pele"
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Christian Graus wrote: cooee of the barbarity shown by the US in killing innocent women and children in two non-military areas for the sole purpose of testing two different types of bomb. Those bombs were already tested in Nevada. What the US did was humane. We knew that the Japanese citizens would fight to the death, women and children, Vietnam style if we did a Normady type invasion. The general consensus was that we would be fighting for 2 more years if we hadn't used those bombs. Also, it took 2 bombs before the Japenese gave up!!! Christian Graus wrote: but killing some innocent Germans as well. The bombs weren't ready then. By the time we had them developed, Germany was already defeated. The Battle of the Bulge was Hitler's last stand.
Martin Marvinski wrote: What the US did was humane IMHO it may be discussed. Not only for Hiroshima, but for all the strategic bombings over large cities. Targetting civilians may be considered as a war crime. Martin Marvinski wrote: The general consensus was that we would be fighting for 2 more years if we hadn't used those bombs It's an explanation. The other one is USA didn't want the help of the Russian (who declared war to Japan on August 8.), and wanted to win the war the fastest, showing to Stalin the new weapon they had. Martin Marvinski wrote: The Battle of the Bulge was Hitler's last stand On the Western Front, not on the Eastern one. Y'a cool jouer avec Maradona qui fait tourner gratos dans les vestiaires - Merci Maradona ! - Y'a pas d'quoi ! Ludwig Von 88, "Goal Di Pele"
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Edd, you really need to spend some time outside of your country, on your own. maybe meet some people you hate just by label of their passport. Or maybe you just go and shout "Kill Bush" in front of the white house, just to prove it's really easy for everybody to do something against the powers to be. Edd wrote: I personally am still suspicious of them. Good so! We will get you one day... :mad:
We are ugly but we have the music Leonhard Cohen [sighist]
peterchen wrote: Good so! We will get you one day... I hope he will get the joke :~ Regards Thomas Sonork id: 100.10453 Thömmi
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peterchen wrote: What the US did in Japan is far beyond questionable. They tested new technology. I'm not condoning what the US did in WW2 but I will say that if the Japanese or Germans had that technology, they would've used it. The US were simply victims of being the first to use the atomic bomb. One defence of the US decision to bomb Japan was that Japan itself was preparing its own weapons of mass destruction. The US may well have anticipated a biological attack on its west coast due to the actions of the notorious Unit 731. They proposed using balloon bombs to carry disease to America and they had a plan in the summer of 1945 to use kamikaze pilots to dump plague infected fleas on San Diego. Some Japanese generals proposed loading the balloons with weapons of biological warfare, to create epidemics of plague or anthrax in the United States. Other army units wanted to send cattle plague virus to wipe out the American livestock industry or grain smut to wipe out the crops. As it happened, 9,000 balloons each carried four incendiary and one antipersonnel bomb across the Pacific on the jet stream to create forest fires and terror from Oregon to Michigan. As the end of the war approached in 1945, Unit 731 embarked on its wildest scheme; codenamed Cherry Blossoms at Night, the plan was to use kamikaze pilots to infest California with the plague. Toshimi Mizobuchi, who was an instructor for new recruits in Unit 731, said the idea was to use 20 of the 500 new troops who arrived in Harbin in July 1945. A submarine was to take a few of them to the seas off Southern California, and then they were to fly in a plane carried on board the submarine and contaminate San Diego with plague-infected fleas. The target date was to be Sept. 22, 1945. As it happened, the fleet of submarine seaplane carriers that assembled was assigned to launch torpedos at the locks in the Panama canal, but that was changed to attack the US fleet at Ulith just as the war ended. As the Japanese army retreated from China as the war was ending, plague-infected animals were released and caused outbreaks of the plague that killed at least 30,000 people in the Harbin area from 1946 through 1948. In the autumn of 1945, MacArthur acceded to granting immunity to members of Unit 731 in exchange for data of research on biological warfare. "The value to the U.S. of Japanese BW data is of such importance to national security as to far outweigh the value accruing from war crimes' prosecution." The BW inf
phykell wrote: I will say that if the Japanese or Germans had that technology, they would've used it IIIrd reich had toxic gazes and biological weapons too. Nazis were just "affraid" of retaliations if they used it. But if they had the nuclear bomb first, I'm sure they would have use it without hesitation, trying to kill the most. This kind of discussion about the use of a nuclear weapon can only happen in a democratic static Y'a cool jouer avec Maradona qui fait tourner gratos dans les vestiaires - Merci Maradona ! - Y'a pas d'quoi ! Ludwig Von 88, "Goal Di Pele"
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I don't mean to offend anyone,but i think the allies in wwII should have delayed the war for the couple months needed to finish the 'A' bomb?. I think if there was ever any nation that deserved the atomic bomb, Germany was the one. The Japanese got what they deserved,but those Nazi loving germans should have gotten it too. People who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
Actually I think we pretty well managed to bomb the hell out of the Germans without needing to resort to atomic weapons. Edd wrote: but those Nazi loving germans should have gotten it too. Most Germans weren't Nazi lovers, we killed a lot of innocent Germans whose only crime was to have chosen poorly at the ballot box. Michael :-) Logic, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority. - The Doctor
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I don't mean to offend anyone,but i think the allies in wwII should have delayed the war for the couple months needed to finish the 'A' bomb?. I think if there was ever any nation that deserved the atomic bomb, Germany was the one. The Japanese got what they deserved,but those Nazi loving germans should have gotten it too. People who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
Geez, have you watched one of them sentimental war movies or what's wrong with you? The ones that I'd put label 'Child guidance' on? You're half a century too late, the responsible are mostly (99%) dead and it would not make any difference today if Germany had more adults with three eyes and two heads... Tomaz
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There were no innocent germans. You should be ashame of yourself. I'd advice you to watch quite a bit of history channel and you will be convinced. When you think about what the germans were up to, it horrofies me. If these people thougth that if you didn't have green eyes blonde hair you were inferior and shold die, imagine what would have happended once they conquered the world. I am sure they would have started having people in places like africa and asia as meat for dinner.Do u know about medical experiments of unimaginable cruelty? You try and get yourself informed before u refer to germans as innocent. I personally am still suspicious of them.
Edd wrote: There were no innocent germans. :wtf: Oh for f*cks sake, take a valium! You cannot blame a whole nation for the dirty deeds done by a dictator and his companions. The two reasons why there are wars on this planet are religion and the likes of you. :mad: Sonorked as well: 100.13197 jorgen FreeBSD is sexy.
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Mr Morden wrote: with a name like Marvinski I assume you are not a true American then? My grandparents came to this country in the 1920's. People from my family served in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. I think the Marvinski name has earned the title of American.
I think that "true" Americans and "true" Australians din't came from Europe (or, at least, they came there many centuries before Colombo and Cook "discover" those lands). -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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Martin Marvinski wrote: By dropping the bomb, we saved many more lives. Maybe this is even the cause that we did not have war with russia, I think people know what happens if anybody will drop any ICBMs or other nuclear weapons... Peace can be a result of fear... Olli BTW: Edd's opinion sounds a little bit like the one that the nazis had... all Germans are bad ...
Olli wrote: Peace can be a result of fear... Real Peace cannot be the result of fear. For this fear we had 40 years of "cold" war and many "local" wars (Korea, Vietnam) all the South-Americans dictators and many other problems that can affect us even more than 10 years after the end of it (think about Afghanistan, for example). Fear can be mistaken for respect, but those are very different things, and to receive respect you've to respect. -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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Mr Morden wrote: ...and the US soldiers who committed atrocities in Vietnam? ...and the US soldiers who committed atrocities in WWII? ...and the US soldiers who committed atrocities in Korea? One thing you have conveniently forgotten is that soldiers from *all* sides did evil things. Not all soldiers were Audi Murphy or John Wayne, standing in a heroic pose with a perfect smile, and a beautiful woman by their side. Here is a question for you. Of all the countries in the world, which one would you rather be a POW (Prisoner of War) in? My first choise is the US!!! Look at Guantanamo Bay! The terrorists get prayer mats, the best medical attention, three meals a day, excersize, and much more. If Americans blew up any other country such as Saudi Arabia, the Americans would be beheaded.
Martin Marvinski wrote: Here is a question for you. Of all the countries in the world, which one would you rather be a POW (Prisoner of War) in? Sweden or Norway. Maybe Italy (but only for the weather). I'm joking, but the fact that some countries threated POW worse than US did is not a good reply to what Mr. Morden said. Do you know something about "My Lai"? The point is that you can't judge all the people of a country only from what some people did. My first choise is the US!!! Look at Guantanamo Bay! The terrorists get prayer mats, the best medical attention, three meals a day, excersize, and much more. Guantanamo is not in the US. -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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Mr Morden wrote: ...and the US soldiers who committed atrocities in Vietnam? ...and the US soldiers who committed atrocities in WWII? ...and the US soldiers who committed atrocities in Korea? One thing you have conveniently forgotten is that soldiers from *all* sides did evil things. Not all soldiers were Audi Murphy or John Wayne, standing in a heroic pose with a perfect smile, and a beautiful woman by their side. Here is a question for you. Of all the countries in the world, which one would you rather be a POW (Prisoner of War) in? My first choise is the US!!! Look at Guantanamo Bay! The terrorists get prayer mats, the best medical attention, three meals a day, excersize, and much more. If Americans blew up any other country such as Saudi Arabia, the Americans would be beheaded.
And the people in Guantanamo are not considered POW by the government of the US. Martin Marvinski wrote: If Americans blew up any other country such as Saudi Arabia, the Americans would be beheaded. But Saudi Arabia is one of the allies of US in the war against terror. A war is not win by those who are right, but by the one who are left. -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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Actually I think we pretty well managed to bomb the hell out of the Germans without needing to resort to atomic weapons. Edd wrote: but those Nazi loving germans should have gotten it too. Most Germans weren't Nazi lovers, we killed a lot of innocent Germans whose only crime was to have chosen poorly at the ballot box. Michael :-) Logic, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority. - The Doctor
Michael P Butler wrote: Most Germans weren't Nazi lovers, we killed a lot of innocent Germans whose only crime was to have chosen poorly at the ballot box. And they had no chance to change their idea at the next poll! -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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Martin Marvinski wrote: Not a true Aussie then Locally made from imported ingredients. Therefore a local according to current labelling laws. Martin Marvinski wrote: Did they get bannished to Austrailia for what they did in Germany? Like a lot of people who found themselves in the middle of the war through no fault of their own, they came here looking for a better life. Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
Christian Graus wrote: Locally made from imported ingredients. Therefore a local according to current labelling laws. A brilliant piss taking description of the facts. Too bad his American humour won't allow him to understand it. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "In Summer, I like to dance naked on the roof to celebrate the event of the temperature finally falling below 40C (usually about midnight). But the neighbors have lately taken up the habit of staying up late. And looking up, at times, from their dreary, pointless lives..." - Roger Wright 15/05/2002
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I don't mean to offend anyone,but i think the allies in wwII should have delayed the war for the couple months needed to finish the 'A' bomb?. I think if there was ever any nation that deserved the atomic bomb, Germany was the one. The Japanese got what they deserved,but those Nazi loving germans should have gotten it too. People who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
Geez, kinda long time to hold a grudge man. :rolleyes: Chris
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I don't mean to offend anyone,but i think the allies in wwII should have delayed the war for the couple months needed to finish the 'A' bomb?. I think if there was ever any nation that deserved the atomic bomb, Germany was the one. The Japanese got what they deserved,but those Nazi loving germans should have gotten it too. People who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
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There were no innocent germans. You should be ashame of yourself. I'd advice you to watch quite a bit of history channel and you will be convinced. When you think about what the germans were up to, it horrofies me. If these people thougth that if you didn't have green eyes blonde hair you were inferior and shold die, imagine what would have happended once they conquered the world. I am sure they would have started having people in places like africa and asia as meat for dinner.Do u know about medical experiments of unimaginable cruelty? You try and get yourself informed before u refer to germans as innocent. I personally am still suspicious of them.
Edd wrote: There were no innocent germans. What about Oscar Schindler? He seemed OK to me. Perhaps what you meant to say was there were no innocent Germans living in Germany at the time. The non-Nazis fled the country in droves, exactly the same way I would if a totalitarian dictatorship arose in Canada.... Wait a minute. Sorry all. I gotta go and pack my bags. ;) Why not throw away a dime? I throw away ten pennies all the time.
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I think Cristian is very ignorant of these fact. There are films of japanese civilians jumping from cliffs instead of living under occupation. But I doubt the bombs weren't ready when the war in europe was over. I think it was a delebrate effort on the part of the allies not to drop the bomb on germans, cause they were europians(prejudise of the worst kind).I still recent them for that. And still hate germans.
Edd wrote: And still hate germans Still? Maybe you should check your History channel once more. I hope what you meant to say is you still hate Nazis. To call everyone who is German a Nazi even to this day is the lowest form of knee-jerk ignorance. You ought to rethink that one. :( Why not throw away a dime? I throw away ten pennies all the time.
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There were no innocent germans. You should be ashame of yourself. I'd advice you to watch quite a bit of history channel and you will be convinced. When you think about what the germans were up to, it horrofies me. If these people thougth that if you didn't have green eyes blonde hair you were inferior and shold die, imagine what would have happended once they conquered the world. I am sure they would have started having people in places like africa and asia as meat for dinner.Do u know about medical experiments of unimaginable cruelty? You try and get yourself informed before u refer to germans as innocent. I personally am still suspicious of them.
If you are serious then you should seek medical help instantly ! Quit watching the History Channel ( I like it quite a bit myself but they are biased also ) and read some history about the rise and fall of the Nazi movement. The average German citizen had little choice in the matter if they wanted to survive. Remember that the victors usually write the history and that you should not judge the actions of others in view of your own culture alone but should try to see thru the eyes of their culture. Would it shock you to know that many lives were lost during the war for political reasons and that military decisions made to make Britian and France look good cost us dearly. Do you really think that if we had had the bomb in time to use against Germany that we would have used it? The war in Europe was basically won by the middle of 44. The big fear in Japan was not that we would lose but that fanatical resistance would cost so many lives. The bomb was used not as a weapon of war but to convince the Japanese Gov. that there was no other course but surrender. As so it worked - and may we never have to use it again. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger
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Martin Marvinski wrote: Remember the Chilean dictator? Aparthid in Africa? And in another message you wrote: Every time Americans kick a country's a** well, they always reform and become good citizens history has shown. And wasn't CIA involved with Pinochet? What were the countries that didn't apply sanctions against south african government? And do you remember who decide that mr. Saddam Hussein was a good democratic leader that could help in the fight against Iran? I'm Italian and I've deep respect to all the Americans that fight and died (with many Italian partisans) to free my country from fascism and nazism, but I think that the credit they gain with those actions can't stop the criticism against their errors. History is not all black (bad) or white (good). Only action movies work in this way, and recognize errors is a good way to avoid to made the same mistakes in the future. -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
And do you remember who decide that mr. Saddam Hussein was a good democratic leader that could help in the fight against Iran? I don't think anyone viewed Saddam as a "good democratic leader". I think the US supported Hussein because they believed he was the lesser of two evils when Iraq and Iran were fighting. Remember that there was a revolution in Iran in 1979. The new leader held a bunch of Americans hostage, and the new government was very anti-US. (They still call the US the "Great Satan".) Within a few months, Iraq and Iran were fighting. Does it seem surprising that the US helped the Iraqis in light of the regime in Iran?
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I've seen them. At least you guys did it to yourselves - the Brits used Aussie troops to perform similar tests, on OUR soil. But it's not the same as dropping it on a city, to see how many you can kill and the long term effects on those who live. If the US wasn't performing science as diabolical as anything the Nazis did, why were the two bombs they used not the same type ? Christian I am completely intolerant of stupidity. Stupidity is, of course, anything that doesn't conform to my way of thinking. - Jamie Hale - 29/05/2002 Half the reason people switch away from VB is to find out what actually goes on.. and then like me they find out that they weren't quite as good as they thought - they've been nannied. - Alex, 13 June 2002
OK I've listened to your uninformed bleating long enough. They used two types of bombs because thats all they had. They produced enough plutoinium and U-235 to make 3 bombs. They tested the first U-235 bomb at the Trinity site. They had two left see 3-1=2. No plot here. They dropped one and Japan still did not see the light so they dropped the other ( not even being real sure that it would work). If Japan had not capitulated at that point it would have been a while before we had another. And many AMERICAN lives would have been lost on an invasion of Japan that the use of the bomb made unneccessary. I guess we were not really thinking about the Japanese senseabilities when we made that decision. It was, however, the correct one. Richard Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions....there was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions. Mark Twain - The Mysterious Stranger