Wag the Dog
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Michael P Butler wrote: It makes you wonder how far governments could go before people started to take notice. Isn't it obvious they already do go too far and we just bend over and take it? Every year they edge a bit further towards what they want, we accept it and then next year when accepting a new shafting forget about last years shafting. i.e. We don't see it adding up. Then one day you wake up and go "OMG, what have we allowed?" Zimbabwe is a good example. Though lack of information and poor media has allowed internal people to think Zim is doing well while Mugabe goes off on a bender. I am with you on wanting to believe the first option. It should be that way, it must be! But it isn't is it? Since when does what we say stay our leaders? They are on their own missions and only listen to us when election time comes around again.
Paul Watson
BlueGrassGroup.com
Cape Town, South AfricaIt is in the inherent nature of government to always increase its ability to control people - all governments, all the time. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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I directly threatened by these terrorists? I am. It is the duty of my government to protect me. You may think you are not threatened by them, but you will be. Sooner rather than later, your government will have to deal with these thugs as well.
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: I directly threatened by these terrorists? I am. It is the duty of my government to protect me. I didn't say that terrorists are nice and simpathetic people. I said that there are no proves that Iraq and Iran supported them whilst there are proves that they get founding from Saudi Arabia (not directly from the government) and that their sanctuaries in Afghanistan were protected by the Talebans supported by the Pakistani secret service. There were no Afghans, Iraquis or Iranian people among the sept 11 terrorists but many of them came from Saudi Arabia. You didn't explained why Iraq deserves to be bombed more than Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and why Saddam Hussein is more dangerous than for the US than mr. Musharraf secret service or Saudi Arabian banks and organization that proudly found terrorists. And I would be happy if you can explain me why bombing a country is the best way to change its government. After Iraq and Iran what's the next target? Cuba? I think that mr. Bush uses the sept 11 tragedy to follow the interests of the US and, specifically of the lobbies that support him (there is oil in Iraq, you know that?), and that's very cinical. You may think you are not threatened by them, but you will be. Sooner rather than later, your government will have to deal with these thugs as well. I live in europe, so I'm closer than you to Iraq, to middle-east and my country can be reached by some of Saddam's weapons. We are exposed to terrorist attacks more or less in the same way, but I think that bombing Iraq will not increase my security and that there are better ways to increase my security than bombs. -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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This was a huge operation with about 100 planes. Also, take out this installation and it clears a path for special forces. We know that Iran and Iraq sponsor terrorism. We should just declare war on them both and get it over with.
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: This was a huge operation with about 100 planes Wrong. Only 12 planes :-) Cheers, Joao Vaz A Programming Language is a tool that has profound influence on our thinking habits -The late giant Edsger Dijkstra 1930 - 2002 And if your dream is to care for your family, to put food on the table, to provide them with an education and a good home, then maybe suffering through an endless, pointless, boring job will seem to have purpose. And you will realize how even a rock can change the world, simply by remaining obstinately stationary. -
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Sometimes I think that we forgot who holds the true power in all the countries of the world. It is shocking how people differ on this. Even my brother and I disagree. Me: "The government exists to serve the people." Brother: "The people serve the government." Floored me when he admitted that. Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
Tim Smith wrote: Brother: "The people serve the government." Maybe he just feels powerless in the face of government? Todd Smith
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Paul Watson wrote: I was trying to grow up, be mature and stop posting bullshit messages in the forum... Oh why go spoiling a good thing like that?:-D
Roger Wright wrote: Oh why go spoiling a good thing like that? I said try, so far I am failing miserably. wOOt!
Paul Watson
BlueGrassGroup.com
Cape Town, South Africa -
Jason Henderson wrote: This was a huge operation with about 100 planes Wrong. Only 12 planes :-) Cheers, Joao Vaz A Programming Language is a tool that has profound influence on our thinking habits -The late giant Edsger Dijkstra 1930 - 2002 And if your dream is to care for your family, to put food on the table, to provide them with an education and a good home, then maybe suffering through an endless, pointless, boring job will seem to have purpose. And you will realize how even a rock can change the world, simply by remaining obstinately stationary. -
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillNope, Jason , the source is wrong . Check this , from a communication from Pentagon on CNN http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/06/iraq.air.attack/index.html[^] Cheers, Joao Vaz A Programming Language is a tool that has profound influence on our thinking habits -The late giant Edsger Dijkstra 1930 - 2002 And if your dream is to care for your family, to put food on the table, to provide them with an education and a good home, then maybe suffering through an endless, pointless, boring job will seem to have purpose. And you will realize how even a rock can change the world, simply by remaining obstinately stationary. -
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America and the UK have just launched an air-borne attack against a defence site in Western Iraq. I'm not going to say anything about American stupidity because it defies belief but I can't understand how Britain, or more specifically, Blair is being so dumb too :( Why is the UK letting itself get tainted in the eye of the rest of the world by joining in this action? None of the other countries have joined or even supported the attack. The only excuse Blair can come up with is that it helps to strengthen the "special" relationship between Britain and the UK. Didn't Blair learn anything at school? One of his precedessors said something to the effect that allies are temporary, only interests are eternal. Blair would do well to listen to this wise counsel. The special relationship is special only for the British. From the American side Britian is just another small country who just happens to follow orders... America has more important countries to worry about. It's focus is not on Europe anymore now that the communist menace has been eliminated but on the Asian-Pacific rim and (because of the Isreali lobby) the mid-east. British support serves only to confer legitimacy. However the value of this will recede over time. If other countries know that Britain will automatically support the US in whatever adventure the US is currently up to the 2 countries will be seen to have a common foreign policy (Javeir Solana, EU foreign "minister", would kill for this) and thus devalue of support in the eyes of other countries. Britain has lost the excellence it once had in the practice of the fine art of diplomacy. It should learn from the Japanese (especially their expert handling of the Afganistan issue) and hopefully get back it's rightful place. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: I'm not going to say anything about American stupidity because it defies belief but I can't understand how Britain, or more specifically, Blair is being so dumb too Brian Azzopardi wrote: From the American side Britian is just another small country who just happens to follow orders Are you as dumb as you sound or are you just making an extra special effort today. History son - stop studing VB and go study some history. One cannot appease a tyrant. Richard When we mean to build, We first survey the plot, then draw the model; And when we see the figure of the house, Then must we rate the cost of the execution. William Shakespeare (King Henry IV)
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Nope, Jason , the source is wrong . Check this , from a communication from Pentagon on CNN http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/06/iraq.air.attack/index.html[^] Cheers, Joao Vaz A Programming Language is a tool that has profound influence on our thinking habits -The late giant Edsger Dijkstra 1930 - 2002 And if your dream is to care for your family, to put food on the table, to provide them with an education and a good home, then maybe suffering through an endless, pointless, boring job will seem to have purpose. And you will realize how even a rock can change the world, simply by remaining obstinately stationary. -
My source says only 12 dropped bombs, but there were many more support aircraft totaling about 100.
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
this is just enforcement of the no-fly zone, which they are allowed to do. so its not war yet
"When the only tool you have is a hammer, a sore thumb you will have."
Except they were saying on the news that the attacked base was not in the no fly zone Anthony www.TonysOpenSource.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
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My source says only 12 dropped bombs, but there were many more support aircraft totaling about 100.
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillIt's possible that were more than 12 , but 100 planes , I doubt , it too much for a normal business like I think that was. Cheers, Joao Vaz A Programming Language is a tool that has profound influence on our thinking habits -The late giant Edsger Dijkstra 1930 - 2002 And if your dream is to care for your family, to put food on the table, to provide them with an education and a good home, then maybe suffering through an endless, pointless, boring job will seem to have purpose. And you will realize how even a rock can change the world, simply by remaining obstinately stationary. -
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: I'm not going to say anything about American stupidity because it defies belief but I can't understand how Britain, or more specifically, Blair is being so dumb too Brian Azzopardi wrote: From the American side Britian is just another small country who just happens to follow orders Are you as dumb as you sound or are you just making an extra special effort today. History son - stop studing VB and go study some history. One cannot appease a tyrant. Richard When we mean to build, We first survey the plot, then draw the model; And when we see the figure of the house, Then must we rate the cost of the execution. William Shakespeare (King Henry IV)
Richard Stringer wrote: Are you as dumb as you sound or are you just making an extra special effort today. History son - stop studing VB and go study some history. One cannot appease a tyrant. Eh eh eh , I know that you would come around with a sentence like this :rolleyes: Cheers, Joao Vaz A Programming Language is a tool that has profound influence on our thinking habits -The late giant Edsger Dijkstra 1930 - 2002 And if your dream is to care for your family, to put food on the table, to provide them with an education and a good home, then maybe suffering through an endless, pointless, boring job will seem to have purpose. And you will realize how even a rock can change the world, simply by remaining obstinately stationary. -
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Dave Huff wrote: you stand up straight the popping sound you here is your head coming out of your ass Nope. That was Dubya Bush :) Dave - get an education. Read some history will ya and make some sense. Dave Huff wrote: world should wait until Saddam succeeds in making a nuke The "world" has to do something about Saddam's nukes because the "world" let the situation come to this point. Infact the "world" is America. Don't you Americans understand how much arabs hate you? They really, really do. And for a bloody good reason: your policy in the middle-east is crap. There are some reasons Arabs hate you: - American military personnel on Arab holy soil. Would you like me to piss against the Lincoln Memorial. No? Neither do the arabs. - Overt american support towards Israel. This is one of the worst blunders. Ever. - America is percieved as being an imperialistic power which threatens the local culture and, worse, undermine the local regime. Even more worse, sometimes America support unpopular regimes on the basis of "he's a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch". - American hypocrisy. If america loves democracy so much why does it support corrupt/undemocratic regimes. Pakistan's Musharraf (the one Bush didnt know his name) is suddenly a friend of the US. Why is it America which is being fired at and not Japan or Switzerland or any other country? Please stop and engage your brain before opening your mouth. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: Dave - get an education. Read some history will ya and make some sense. You are the one that needs a history lesson. Read a bit about the late 30's and Chamberlain. How the British paid no attention to Churchill. The stupidity of Italy and France ( quite similar to your precesent viewpoints ). Don't just read - study - learn - analyze - see. Don't impress us with your book knowledge of the salient facts - give us an alternative persepective - what would you, from your exalted point of view, do to stabilize the situation? Ask yourself these queations: (1) Does Isael have nukes or WMA's? (2) If their homeland was threatened and they were in danger of being overwhelmed would they use them if they had them. (3) Does Eqypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia have nukes or WMA's? (4) Are they dumb enough to attack Israel militaraly? (5) What happens to the world economy if there is massive conflict in the middle east ? (6) What country has the ability to do anything about the above? (6) Why does the US need the consent of a bunch of pissant countries with a proven record of doing the wrong thing at the wrong time - everytime? RIchard When we mean to build, We first survey the plot, then draw the model; And when we see the figure of the house, Then must we rate the cost of the execution. William Shakespeare (King Henry IV)
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Dave Huff wrote: you stand up straight the popping sound you here is your head coming out of your ass Nope. That was Dubya Bush :) Dave - get an education. Read some history will ya and make some sense. Dave Huff wrote: world should wait until Saddam succeeds in making a nuke The "world" has to do something about Saddam's nukes because the "world" let the situation come to this point. Infact the "world" is America. Don't you Americans understand how much arabs hate you? They really, really do. And for a bloody good reason: your policy in the middle-east is crap. There are some reasons Arabs hate you: - American military personnel on Arab holy soil. Would you like me to piss against the Lincoln Memorial. No? Neither do the arabs. - Overt american support towards Israel. This is one of the worst blunders. Ever. - America is percieved as being an imperialistic power which threatens the local culture and, worse, undermine the local regime. Even more worse, sometimes America support unpopular regimes on the basis of "he's a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch". - American hypocrisy. If america loves democracy so much why does it support corrupt/undemocratic regimes. Pakistan's Musharraf (the one Bush didnt know his name) is suddenly a friend of the US. Why is it America which is being fired at and not Japan or Switzerland or any other country? Please stop and engage your brain before opening your mouth. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
You missed Saudi Arabia Anthony www.TonysOpenSource.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
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David Huff wrote: you stand up straight the popping sound you here is your head coming out of your ass **Brian Azzopardi wrote:**Nope. That was Dubya Bush You should have more respect for a man who almost suceedeed in killing himself using only a pretzel! -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
Once the current situation is over they'll probably cook up sonme story about how Castro's forces infiltrated Bush's home with exploding pretzels so they can bomb Cuba Anthony www.TonysOpenSource.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: Dave - get an education. Read some history will ya and make some sense. You are the one that needs a history lesson. Read a bit about the late 30's and Chamberlain. How the British paid no attention to Churchill. The stupidity of Italy and France ( quite similar to your precesent viewpoints ). Don't just read - study - learn - analyze - see. Don't impress us with your book knowledge of the salient facts - give us an alternative persepective - what would you, from your exalted point of view, do to stabilize the situation? Ask yourself these queations: (1) Does Isael have nukes or WMA's? (2) If their homeland was threatened and they were in danger of being overwhelmed would they use them if they had them. (3) Does Eqypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia have nukes or WMA's? (4) Are they dumb enough to attack Israel militaraly? (5) What happens to the world economy if there is massive conflict in the middle east ? (6) What country has the ability to do anything about the above? (6) Why does the US need the consent of a bunch of pissant countries with a proven record of doing the wrong thing at the wrong time - everytime? RIchard When we mean to build, We first survey the plot, then draw the model; And when we see the figure of the house, Then must we rate the cost of the execution. William Shakespeare (King Henry IV)
Richard Stringer wrote: (1) Does Isael have nukes or WMA's? YES (2) If their homeland was threatened and they were in danger of being overwhelmed would they use them if they had them. YES (3) Does Eqypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia have nukes or WMA's? NO (4) Are they dumb enough to attack Israel militaraly? PROBABLY BUT SAUDI ARABIA WOULD ONLY DO IT OFFICIALLY WITH US PERMISSION SO NOT GOING TO HAPPEN (5) What happens to the world economy if there is massive conflict in the middle east ? WE'RE FUCKED (6) What country has the ability to do anything about the above? ALL OF THE WESTERN COUNTRIES (6) Why does the US need the consent of a bunch of pissant countries with a proven record of doing the wrong thing at the wrong time - everytime? THIS IS WHY NO ONE LIKES YOU. WHAT KIND OF ANALYSIS DO YOU CALL THAT? Anthony www.TonysOpenSource.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: Britain would do well to the mercantilist diplomacy it too used to practice. Being a naive, optimistic and "more love" kind of guy it sounds to me like Japan is a two faced devil playing both sides. At least Britian sticks to one side. What happens when push comes to shove? Who will Japan have to side with and will that side even want Japan? Won't both the Arabs and Americans not trust Japan (and obviously both the Arabs and America know about Japans multi-sided dealings) in a crisis and so leave it out of the loop? Or is this "mercantilist" diplomacy an accepted and OK thing with politicians?
Paul Watson
BlueGrassGroup.com
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: What happens when push comes to shove? Who will Japan have to side with and will that side even want Japan? That's the whole point of Japan's strategy. It does not want to be around when push comes to shove. Japan does *not* want to side with anybody. That's why it's being nice to both sides. Paul Watson wrote: on't both the Arabs and Americans not trust Japan (and obviously both the Arabs and America know about Japans multi-sided dealings) in a crisis and so leave it out of the loop? America are ashamed of the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan. They are also bound by treaty to protect Japan. Finally Japan is one of two major footholds it has in Asia from which it can project power. The other is North Korea where it has 40,000 troops stationed. Therefore America needs japan as much as Japan needs America. America can't let it go. The arabs don't trust the Japs and vice versa. Their deal was a pure business deal: you gimme oil, I give u a large some (billions) of money. Currently Iran needs as much hard cash as it can lay its hands on. Paul Watson wrote: Or is this "mercantilist" diplomacy an accepted and OK thing with politicians? Yep! mercantilism has been doing the rounds for eons. Why do you think England is/was called Perfidious Albion by continental countries? Because it could and would switch alliances as it saw fit in the service of its own interests. It would never have hitched itself to one country. That's just plain dumb. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Paul Watson wrote: What happens when push comes to shove? Who will Japan have to side with and will that side even want Japan? That's the whole point of Japan's strategy. It does not want to be around when push comes to shove. Japan does *not* want to side with anybody. That's why it's being nice to both sides. Paul Watson wrote: on't both the Arabs and Americans not trust Japan (and obviously both the Arabs and America know about Japans multi-sided dealings) in a crisis and so leave it out of the loop? America are ashamed of the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan. They are also bound by treaty to protect Japan. Finally Japan is one of two major footholds it has in Asia from which it can project power. The other is North Korea where it has 40,000 troops stationed. Therefore America needs japan as much as Japan needs America. America can't let it go. The arabs don't trust the Japs and vice versa. Their deal was a pure business deal: you gimme oil, I give u a large some (billions) of money. Currently Iran needs as much hard cash as it can lay its hands on. Paul Watson wrote: Or is this "mercantilist" diplomacy an accepted and OK thing with politicians? Yep! mercantilism has been doing the rounds for eons. Why do you think England is/was called Perfidious Albion by continental countries? Because it could and would switch alliances as it saw fit in the service of its own interests. It would never have hitched itself to one country. That's just plain dumb. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: It would never have hitched itself to one country. That's just plain dumb. Thanks for the lesson on relations :) * I am not being facetious
Paul Watson
BlueGrassGroup.com
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Brian Azzopardi wrote: I'm not going to say anything about American stupidity because it defies belief but I can't understand how Britain, or more specifically, Blair is being so dumb too Brian Azzopardi wrote: From the American side Britian is just another small country who just happens to follow orders Are you as dumb as you sound or are you just making an extra special effort today. History son - stop studing VB and go study some history. One cannot appease a tyrant. Richard When we mean to build, We first survey the plot, then draw the model; And when we see the figure of the house, Then must we rate the cost of the execution. William Shakespeare (King Henry IV)
Richard Stringer wrote: stop studing VB I'm not a VB programmer. I happen to know C/C++ very well thank you. Richard Stringer wrote: go study some history Are you sure about this? Did you read my bio? Would you really wanna argue politics and history with me? I can really show you how hard I worked for my degree if you want :) Richard Stringer wrote: Are you as dumb as you sound or are you just making an extra special effort today I'm making an extra effort today so that dumb people (like you) can understand me. Unforunately it seems even that's too taxing for their/your beer-adled brains. Despite insulting me you did not come up with one, NOT one single argument to rebut mine. What does that make you? Even if I say so myself, my original argument was on the whole reasonable. Yet you did not even attempt to counter one sentence. Grow up. Go to debate class: it would do u some good. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Dave Huff wrote: you stand up straight the popping sound you here is your head coming out of your ass Nope. That was Dubya Bush :) Dave - get an education. Read some history will ya and make some sense. Dave Huff wrote: world should wait until Saddam succeeds in making a nuke The "world" has to do something about Saddam's nukes because the "world" let the situation come to this point. Infact the "world" is America. Don't you Americans understand how much arabs hate you? They really, really do. And for a bloody good reason: your policy in the middle-east is crap. There are some reasons Arabs hate you: - American military personnel on Arab holy soil. Would you like me to piss against the Lincoln Memorial. No? Neither do the arabs. - Overt american support towards Israel. This is one of the worst blunders. Ever. - America is percieved as being an imperialistic power which threatens the local culture and, worse, undermine the local regime. Even more worse, sometimes America support unpopular regimes on the basis of "he's a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch". - American hypocrisy. If america loves democracy so much why does it support corrupt/undemocratic regimes. Pakistan's Musharraf (the one Bush didnt know his name) is suddenly a friend of the US. Why is it America which is being fired at and not Japan or Switzerland or any other country? Please stop and engage your brain before opening your mouth. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azzopardi wrote: Brian Azzopardi wrote: The "world" has to do something about Saddam's nukes because the "world" let the situation come to this point. Yes I believe that it was the American allies that convinced the Americans to stop short of taking out Saddam in 1992. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Infact the "world" is America. What the hell do you mean by that? I'm sure the French, Germans, Indonesians, Japanese... would tend to disagree. Brian Azzopardi wrote: Don't you Americans understand how much arabs hate you? First I am a Canadian, second - judging from the number of Arab immigrants to the US I doubt they all hate America. Actually the large numbers of immigrants away from the Arab states indicates they like where they are a lot less. Brian Azzopardi wrote: - American military personnel on Arab holy soil. Would you like me to piss against the Lincoln Memorial. No? Neither do the arabs. You mean all those military personnel in Saudi Arabia that were invited by the Saudi royal family to be there? Hey if they don't want the Americans there ask them to leave - of course the Saudi royal family doesn't want that because they would probably be attacked by their own people. - Overt american support towards Israel. This is one of the worst blunders. Ever. - America is percieved as being an imperialistic power which threatens the local culture and, worse, undermine the local regime. Even more worse, sometimes America support unpopular regimes on the basis of "he's a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch". - American hypocrisy. If america loves democracy so much why does it support corrupt/undemocratic regimes. Pakistan's Musharraf (the one Bush didnt know his name) is suddenly a friend of the US. This is classic. You contradict yourself over and over here. 1 - America supports the only functional democracy in the middle east (Israel) 2 - America is an imperialistic power 3 - America supports corrupt/undemocratic regimes. Well if 2 is true then instead of supporting corrupt regimes they would be going in and replacing them with democratic regimes. America lives in the world of realpolitik - they deal with the governments that are in power. As for America threatening local culture - America does not force "Friends" and Pepsi on the world - the world asks for it. America is not an imperialistic culture