Sun does not like its own medicine.

[Giles]

Yes. But we all get those kind of people. Bless'em. :-D

[benjymous]

Exactly. If you know two languages well then you'll be able to find an example that one does well at and one struggles with. If it's a tiny task that would normally only occur very occasionally then it really isn't going to make an impact. This is why benchmarks tend to be considered bad, as they'll only prove what the person who wrote the benchmark wanted to prove -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!

[ColinDavies]

benjymous wrote: This is why benchmarks tend to be considered bad, as they'll only prove what the person who wrote the benchmark wanted to prove Well sometimes it does show the person who wrote the benchmark can't write benchmarks to prove what they wanted as well. :-) I'd rather see an independent problem posted by an independent then see two groups work head to head to have the best solution. Although this still is flawed and will not prove anything conclusively. Regardz Colin J Davies

Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

I'm guessing the concept of a 2 hour movie showing two guys eating a meal and talking struck them as 'foreign' Rob Manderson wrote:

[Marc Clifton]

One problem is that every Java program relies on the installed Java Runtime Environment, and when packages are issued every four or five months, they destroy existing packages and can't be back-graded to the prior install. Let's see if Microsoft can avoid this with the .NET framework. It doesn't look good so far, in my opinion. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"

[Felix Gartsman]

Jon wrote: a more reasonable test towards the end of the thread showed that (predicitably) C++ is faster than Java. Actually Java can outperform C++ in real applications. But Sun/MS JVMs are too weak for this. Research JVMs can perform much better with tweaks for specific applications. Which is related to second issue of programming style. How many know/understand how to program for GC environments? My bet is 0.1% of those using Java. Same goes for C#.

[Senkwe Chanda]

Hmmm, I have a hard time believing that those comments came from a Sun engineer. They don't seem to be well informed in the least. He says "Sun engineers think that Solaris gets in the way of implementing many software applications" It would be interesting to find out WHICH applications he's talking about. If he's talking about Java being too slow for some types of applications, well they've known that from the beginning. He says "A large number of bugs in Java end up being labelled unfixable compared to a much smaller number for C++." Dunno. It's hard to say what this means. C++ has been around longer than Java. *shrug* And the rest of the article just seems very amateurish. ASP.NET can never fail as working with it is like fitting bras to supermodels - it's one pleasure after the next - David Wulff

[Richard Deeming]

Marc Clifton wrote: It doesn't look good so far, in my opinion. :confused: Looking at the list of breaking changes for v1.1, I can't see anything major. http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/changeinfo/Backwards1.0to1.1/default.aspx[^]

---

"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer

[Marc Clifton]

Ah, I understand your confusion. I wasn't refering to the feature list, but to the likelihood of .NET framework updates every 3-6 months. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"

[Senkwe Chanda]

Are you talking about running apps built with different framework versions on the same machine? ASP.NET can never fail as working with it is like fitting bras to supermodels - it's one pleasure after the next - David Wulff

[Marc Clifton]

Not just that. In some lounge discussions, several people have pointed out the corporate reluctance to deal the issue of upgrades, the 20MB footprint, framework instabilities, and other maintenance issues. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"

[Senkwe Chanda]

Felix Gartsman wrote: Actually Java can outperform C++ in real applications You mean badly written or non-optimized C++ applications. But that's good enough in most cases anyway :-) ASP.NET can never fail as working with it is like fitting bras to supermodels - it's one pleasure after the next - David Wulff

[Kastellanos Nikos]

Felix Gartsman wrote: Actually Java can outperform C++ in real applications. No Way!!! ;P :laugh: Felix Gartsman wrote: Research JVMs can perform much better with tweaks for specific applications. No problem with that. Allready every decent JAVA applications installs it's own copy of prefered JRE version, why not install it's very own tweaked implementation? I must been stupid for programming in C++, since JAVA is both simpler and faster. :rolleyes: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234

[Senkwe Chanda]

Yeah I know what you mean :-) Actually the running versions 1.0 and 1.1 of the .NET framework on the same machine is a total non issue. There are a few gotchas that you have to watch out for but those have been outlined already by MS. As for the 20MB download...yeah I see that as a problem for average end-users, but in a corporate setting the argument doesn't fly (at least not with me). You get one guy to download the package, burn it and share it on the network. I can't see how that is a headache. Perhaps I'm a little TOO patient :-) ASP.NET can never fail as working with it is like fitting bras to supermodels - it's one pleasure after the next - David Wulff

[Felix Gartsman]

Kastellanos Nikos wrote: Actually Java can outperform C++ in real applications. No Way!!! Way:) Seriously speaking, GC environment can be better when used correctly. My point is that few know how to do it. Kastellanos Nikos wrote: No problem with that. Allready every decent JAVA applications installs it's own copy of prefered JRE version, why not install it's very own tweaked implementation? That was the Sun engineer point - it breaks. While programmers write C++ in Java, no single JVM will work well for all. Kastellanos Nikos wrote: I must been stupid for programming in C++, since JAVA is both simpler and faster. Simpler? Maybe, never used it. Faster? Today - no, in 10 years - yes. There is enourmous progress in compilation, in a few years C#/Java will outperform C++ as used by most people.

[Stan Shannon]

Now *thats* funny. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle

[Roger Wright]

Is this the same Inquirer that featured a picture of George Bush Sr. walking the White House lawn with an alien? Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

[Richard Stringer]

Felix Gartsman wrote: There is enourmous progress in compilation, in a few years C#/Java will outperform C++ as used by most people. You are ASSUMING that the java/c# compilers will improve while the C++ compilers will remain static. I don't believe that that will happen. In any case in 10 years the paradigm will probably have changed and we will all be programming in some variant of Smalltalk anyway. C and C++ and any of their descendant languages will probably remain closer to the machine than the other languages making them inhierently faster and the language of choice for thoae who can implement alogrithms and understand data structures and do not need nor want the handholding that the higher level languages force on you. The meat is sweeter closer to the bone. Richard I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. Albert Einstein

[Felix Gartsman]

Richard Stringer wrote: You are ASSUMING that the java/c# compilers will improve while the C++ compilers will remain static. Richard Stringer wrote: C and C++ and any of their descendant languages will probably remain closer to the machine than the other languages I say this because of the second quote. C++ is too close to machine for optimization. C# gives more room for optimizations - no pointers for example. C++ void * and pointer/integer casting eliminate many optimizations.

[Richard Stringer]

Felix Gartsman wrote: C++ is too close to machine for optimization. C# gives more room for optimizations - no pointers for example. C++ void * and pointer/integer casting eliminate many optimizations. I don't quite understand this. As background I have written small compilers ( for a subset of basic and pascal on 6502 based machines) and have been on teams that implemented a larger compiler ( although not the team that implemented the actual code generation although we did work closely with them) and if I recall correctly ( which is sometimes at doubt ) pointers are the most efficient method of addressing variables and casting would only effect local optimizations and not global scope opts. It is mainly an addressing issue. In thinking about it the C and C++ compiler options on struct boundry alignment and stack handling would be a pretty hard obstacle to overcome by languages using a different approach. I can see the advantage to the programmer ( in retrospect only ) of not using void pointers as it makes reading the code somewhat ambigious but internally a pointer is a pointer is a... well its an address regradless of what it is pointing to. And pass by reference is still a pointer except that the programmer can do nothing with it. Power to the programmer. I can see C++ going thru an eveloutionary phase where it becomes more and more OO but still retains the elements that currently exists to allow the programmer to "break" the rules when suited. To me this is the real power of the language. Richard I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. Albert Einstein

[Jorgen Sigvardsson]

One thing I've learned is that Java zealots are so full of crap. They're even worse than the worst imaginable Linux zealot. I mean, come on!? 12 times faster than C++? What kind of shit are they on? Java is run in an interpreter. Even if it's JITed, you can't hide the MASSIVE runtime processing that is run behind your own code. C++ is run on the bareboned CPU - a half brained C++ compiler and half brained C++ programmer can make any Java program look like a slug. -- "It is amazing how f-ing crazy I really am."