You have done a pretty good description of the situation (let's call it data ) But we can take a look to the reason ( the code )

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calculus

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“scientific method”

Are these two possible whitout the elusive zero? You can have some basic geometry (ask Pitagoras, althougt not Roman), but no algebra. I absolutely agree with the print machine. This one does need great math to be developed, and plays a main role in the science. The reason of this post is that many times people mistakes existence and reality. Zero, as well as space lacks existence ( no mass, no energy, no information ) but both overflow reality.

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And yes, I will defend that position until you come with something convincing.

Well that's your prerogative. We live in a free will realm, that is to say: A responsibility realm, is the same thing. This basically means you can act, speak or think the way you decide, and stick whith the consequences, both pleasant and unpleasant; sooner, later or simultaneously, if out withdraw the factor "time" from the equation. ( equating it to NULL )

I absolutely agree, Tech have a huge black side. I suposse we humans as species are doomed to explore even that black side, and paid for it.

That´s the main reason of the argument: No alive witnesses letf.

Ha, ha this is a good one.

Well, can be an egg and chicken problem, I does not know the concept of "deep state" fits for an historian. maybe Romans had one of these too.

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the Romans knew the concept of "nothing"; it just didn't have a char to denote it.

They did not apply the concept "zero" to its numerical system, hence the lack of symbol; so, they could not handle too big or too little numbers and operate with it. It is impossible to develop chemical novelties, radio antenae, iron ships, major metal structcures without strong math. An math-less industrial revolution would have been anchored in the steam engine and the alchemy, and would not have headed to place a man alive on the moon. "The Void" is an indian concept. In fact the have ancient texts about it. Zero was invented by the indians, brought to Europe by the moors via Spain (Al-Andalus)promoted by Fibonacci and widely used in Europe in the 16th century. Shortly after some mathematicians started their work and made technology possible.

They pushed its numerical system to its limits, no doubt, and got got incredible things. But if you withdraw the zero of many of out engineering fields things like the Fourier Transform get really complicated. As another example, it is predict the planets position with the middle ages earth centered system. but if you place the sun in the center, things became simpler.

The question is serious. Let me reformulate: ¿Is it possible an Industrial Revolution without a zero based math?

Eddy Vluggen wrote:

Didn't even happen during the enlightment, ages later, wich had much better foundations to do so.

They also lacked zero. This is precisely the point.

I think that's not the point, but a numerical system with or without zero. For example. You can calculate the volume of a pool, or the weight of a rocket oxidizer easily in binary, hexadecimal o decimal system, both in metric or imperial, using a computer or a dirty piece of paper buy try to the same thing with romans. In you withdraw the zero from a numerical system, you wipe out all engineering, I think

Good try, he, he. Well some modern banks like Lloyd's made great part of his wealth from slavery, till late 18 century. Some people could argue their job is slavery nowadays ... Now seriously speaking, I think the actual reason was the lack of "0", half of our binary system. This one came from India, like software stuff nowadays. I can´t image Oliver Heavyside building some foundations of engineering without a good supply of zeros.

I think so. It came from India. Can you imagine the speed of light represented in roman digits? Is is philoshopically interesting that an item devoid of existence, in fact it represents the opposite of existence, has such importance: "Please, add some zeroes to my wage !!!" "No,no the opposite side"

Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?

Sometimes, too options can be a problem. A few days ago, I nedded to take a photo from a bus ticket and the "one hand holded" smartphone insisted in asking for a miriad of options of embellishment and in fixing my priorities. Just this time, I would have preferred an not so smart phone. As the interface, that´s to say, the languaje you comunnicate whith is changing every other day nowadays. Do you think a button that reduces the "smartness" of your device is necessary?

putty, minimal, no annoying and only makes sessions in you want. The fantastic program wich does not put his hands in your pocket.

I enjoyed your comment, It has rhythm, and this makes its reading pleasurable. I think you're absolutely rigth. I'm trying to show how even wealthy groups made big strategic mistakes as well as big strategic hits, and how is size prestige can hide the diference between. So the CompuServe example if far from perfect, but is a try.

Fantastic insigth. I think getting whealt sometimes does not mean making perfect products. In fact MS has made money from their own faults, as well as their big hits. This way of doing things sometimes implies evil eating some smart competitors, but I think it has the seeds of their own ending, once the initial creative force faded. I can remenber the compuserve issue. When internet started, compuserve saw it as a threat, and fougth against, instead of becoming the biggest USA ISP. Similary, MS could have had the most important linux (or BSD) distribution, but Google and Apple took his place.

I agree. absolutely. Fantastically expressed. One of my coworkers menace me with throwing the new corporate windows 8 laptop out the window, after several days on fight against it. I cowarly installed windows 7. I could imagine the novelty creators hell. One of their keyboard key is changed every hour. Remember: change is always good.

In C++ an exception, there is no return in that subrutine. The ANSI C equivalent may be a longjump, but this is even worst than a goto.

Great page. I laught a lot. Seriouly talking. It's no easy to find pages with such a level of understanding the compiler works, but for me, fallout in the next case in switch statements without break is great. “My mother loved children -- she would have given anything if I had been one.” Grouch Marx.