Christian, The son ain't the father, that's for sure. I've read the prequels, but they are ordinary...very ordinary. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Christian, It's actually Peter they claim to follow on from, but the answer is that they do everything the Pharisees did and nothing that Peter OR Paul did. Oops...put it down to a slow news day, or fast fingers. Yep, meant Peter, not Paul. One of these days I'll have to get you to explain just exactly how you *know* the church broke from Peter (and the architect of christianity, Paul). ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Jason, Thanks for the chat, but I have to go. My major beef with the Cath. church is its organization. Its central figure is the Pope (a man) and not Christ. Well, there you go then. Sounds like your problem is not with the theology of the church, but with it's structure. I suggest you get baptised as a Catholic pretty quick smart, just in case they are right! I think you are missing my point, so let me clarify: Live your life for God and do everything you can to please him and you will be saved. If I wanted a god, I'd pick one like that too! Good for you! However, you *do* realise you are essentially "rolling your own" version of christianity, don't you? Personally, my version will have more supermodel angels, and lots of Heavy Metal elevator music in the lifts in all the tall buildings in heaven...but that's just me. I would suggest that if you truely want to know the path to salvation, you should consider all options as I have (I was once a sceptic of "religion" but never of God's existence). Likewise. I take it then that you have considered deisim, Islam, Tribalism and Buddhism (to name a widely dispersed few) before selecting from one of the 30,000 different variations of christianity? But hey, I'm happy to be judged on my actions in this world - just a bit pissed that you want to drop me in the fiery pits (yes, CG, I know - they may not be all that fiery!!) just because I want to vote Democrate to your Republican. Later. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Christian, It's been interesting (as always...), but I gotta go. A few parting comment's and I'll leave the final word to you... Your friend is interpreting his view of events, not the Bible. I'll just disagree here - he's specifically referring to biblical prophecy (he's big on using probability to "prove" the bible correct by demonstrating that prophecy beats the odds). Every person who was not aware of the Gospel will be judged by God on the basis of their works. And the works of a 2 week old infant would be... Read James for more on this. Ah...good old James. I must admit, I like his writings for the depth of his manipulation - a perfectly executed catch 22. Validation for the validated. Who God is, what He offers us, and what we need to do to be part of it Well, that's *your* list of "the things that matter". How do you know that's *all* the important things? Yes, it reveals that God is both good, and powerful. That is all I really need to know, to be honest. Simple and direct - I can admire that. Ultimately meaningless, but still... If you're really interested in the answer to all this, the answer lies in finding out for yourself. Been there, done that. You will eventually, perhaps. Let me make a (useless and undeterminable) predict - should you make 50, you won't be a member of your current church. Why? You're smarter than that, and you know it... Anything else is just endless pontification. Amen to that. I'd be quite happy to recommend a church meeting in your area where these things are understood, preached and experienced by all. Hmm ... no thanks! "Tongues" is too scary for me, I'm afraid. I'll just stick to Rammstein (perhaps that could be interpreted as "tongues"??? hah..) Catch ya later. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Jason, The key words here are "The Catholic Church says", Absolutely. And you know the Catholic church (despite having a 2000 year unbroken claim to the 'ministry' of Paul) is wrong because...? I don't recall the bible saying that once saved always saved. If you can find it, show me the verse. And you'd probably be right (pending interpretation, of course). However, the Catholic church teaches that the bible is neither the beginning nor the end of god's communication with mankind. Sure, it's the single greatest element in the dialog, but if you restrict yourself to just the books of the bible then you are (might be?) missing part of the conversation. But since you wish to rely on the bible alone as your source of information, then which canon are you using : The Samaritan bible - the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch) only. The Protestant bible - 66 books. The Catholic bible - 73 books. The Ethiopian Orthodox church - 81 books. Or do you read all potential biblical works and make up your own mind about which are divine and which are not? Even if you wish to elevate the bible to a position of 'sole source' for your faith, then you are implicitly allowing human factors to influence your knowledge base purely because it is humans that have chosen the canon you work from. If you trust the men who selected the canon, then why do you choose not the trust the men of the Catholic church whenthey write additinal works under 'divine inspiration'? I have been baptized and it was a decision I made of my own free will (I guess that makes me a free thinker) unlike christened babies. But not baptised as a Catholic. Sorry, but I'm in and you're out. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Disagreeing with what the majority believes is right is a pattern that God's people have followed right though the Bible, and it certainly states this would be the case in our age also. The strange thing is, I have been posting recently with a *very* intelligent fundamentalist christian who insists thet the single greatest proof that christianity is "the truth" is that it has more supporters than any other religion. His popint is that the growth of christianity over 2000 years clearly shows it is correct, and he quotes biblical scripture to show that this enormous numerical superiority is all the prrof one could need to see that the bible is accurate. Now you're telling me that the bible predicts that christians must be the minority in order for the bible to be true. What were we saying about bible interpretation... Like I said, if 'heaven' was for people who deserved it, then no-one would be going. I think I know what you mean, but perhaps this is worded poorly? Heaven is fiull of people who don't deserve to be there? I said I didn't believe it was necesarily eternal torment, it may well be ceasing to exist. Yes, I did catch that. Ceasing to exist. Hmmm... an unsual concept for a christian, but there are so many variations nowadays that I suppose you can add this into the list of possibilities. Can you explain how we can start eliminating possible descriptions of hell? Can I forget about the possibility that hell consists of being trapped in an eternal nightclub with Duran Duran permanently playing? Not in the things that matter, no. Such as global floods? Oops..let that go, we've covered that more than once before! How about baptism? Any room to move there? Or the Trinity? Where exactly is the Trinity defined in the bible? Is salvation via works, faith, or both? Are tongues (or any gift of the Holy Spirit) necessary for salvation? What about a few social lessons - what does the bible say about abortion, or slavery? What happens to children that die before "the age of reason"? If the bible doesn't need interpretation for "the things that matter", then how do we determine what the list of "things that matter" is? Which scripture, without needing interpretation, explains "things that matter"? The detail that is easy to verify is that God exists and does good things in the lives of people who follow Him, starting with rigidly defined and verifiable proof to the individual. You got me there. Can't win an argument about 'personal miracles'. O

The priests in question, by definition, are not Christians in most cases. No church that has people they refer to as priests that I know of preaches Christianity. That's okay Christian - I understand that you actually disagree with probably 95% of the people who call themselves christians as the what actually constitutes a "christian". I wonder if they realise that though... But the answer is that if he became a Christian, he would have been forgiven. Yep, that's the way most christians answer. Nice system... ...I'm not suggesting it's a preferable option. But you're not actually sure it's all that bad. Perhaps the supermodels in hell are just a little overwieght, and the temperature in the spa is a few degrees too cool? The two words translated as hell are the Greek word for the grave and the name of a place where refuse was discarded in Jerusalem. I think the word you are looking for in the original Greek bible is "hades", which translates essentially as "unseen". Perhaps us sinners just get moved into a different neighbourhood of heaven, where the 'believers' can't see us. It is not clear from either of these that there is a place of eternal torment. True enough - biblical interpretation is a bitch, isn't it! Now, if only god could have said what he meant. But then, documentation is always the 'poor cousin' of any project... It also says that God is going to spend all eternity being nice to us. Perhaps in the same way that the priest wants to be 'nice' to the alter boy? Okay, okay - sorry! But I still would not claim to have a totally clear picture, as in I couldn't tell you exactly what will happen. I'd be cheeky enough to suggest that you (a) can't provide anything much more that a unexposed, murky polaroid and (b) have no possible way of verifying any details whatsoever. But I know enough to know that it's going to be better than Disneyland. Well why didn't you say so - sign me up! Godland Theme park, here we come... ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Jason, I'm not aware of which particular dialect of christianity you subscribe to, so this may or may not make sense to you... If you can accept that law breakers get punished, why can't you accept that God will punish those that reject him? Because you neatly, and perhaps without thinking about it, just merged two different concepts into one. You overlaid "law breakers" and "free thinkers". The Catholic church says I'm on my way to heaven, no matter what I do. Why? Because I was baptised as an infant. I have been marked as 'belonging to god'. Baptism can't be "removed" - it's written in indelible ink. Now take Mr Graus (trying to avoid saying "Christian", so as not to confuse Christian with christians - er, you know what I mean, right?). He won't be going to (Catholic) heaven (I think - were you ever baptised a Catholic, Christian?). Note that Christian, through his failure to be baptised, is a 'law breaker' and will be punished. Christian doesn't accept the Catholic theology - he's a Catholic "free thinker". Yet he's devout, reads the bible before breakfast every day, lives a (reasonably) good life, and understands GDIPlus quite well (usually a sure sign of satanic influence, but we'll overlook it for now). Following on from you comment then, and according to some 900 million humans, Christian has no right to complain if he spends the rest of eternity in hell - he had his choice, and he rejected the truth. And this seems fair to you? If the Catholics are right, then I'm getting ice-cream and supermodels, and Mr Graus gets Linix maintenance programming for all eternity. Tell you what - play it safe. If you haven't already, then whip down to your local Catholic church and get a bit of water splashed on your head. Might be the best 10 minutes you've ever invested. Now, assuming you *aren't* a Catholic, why don;t you do it right now? ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

That is a different issue and one on which I presume from your post you have no idea what my opinion is. My opinion involves a rusty knife. Glad to hear it - but we were (indirectly?) discussing god's opinion, rather than yours. What precisely does god do with these stray by repentant priests? Hypothetically (and in your opinion), if dear Adolf had've "accepted the gift" moments before he died, would he currently be eating ice-cream in the spa with Eva? Or is he "paying a price" somewhere for his deeds, regardless of his final thoughts? I have no idea what happens to you. I do know that it's your decision though. I don't think it's a room full of flames, I'd lean towards non-existance. I'm well aware you're from the "the bible says it all" camp, but I'd never have picked you to be so soft, fuzzy and "new age" on the heaven/hell thingy. So if you have no real idea of what "hell" might be (other than "not good"), then what do you think "Heaven" is? Can I assume you define "heaven" as "good"? Perhaps "better than hell"? Imagine how annoyed you'll be if you get to heaven and find that the "reward" is just a free weekly rental from VideoHeaven (TM)! ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Christian/Tim, The whole 'eternity in hell' concept is not quite as clear in the Bible as you may thing,... Yeah, but was just trying to keep it simple. Which ever way you slice it, it's generally considered "not a good thing". ...as Tim pointed out, when you're God, you get to define what is right. Agreed, but doesn't it strike you as just a little odd that god's rules seem, well, immoral? Or at the least, unacceptable to human courts? Eternal punishment (that means infinite, by the way!) just for a disagreement on philosophy? No punishment at all for a child molesting priest, provided he accepts god's gift? If you choose not to accept it, then you had freedom of choice, what are you complaining about? Penalty. Punishment. Coercion. If you view is that we all go "somewhere" after death, and the 'gift accepters' get extra topping on their ice-creams then I'm fine with that. If your idea is that you get an eternal spa bath with the supermodel(s) of your choice, and I get eternal repeats of Ronald Reagan movies then it's unjust. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

I agree - the price of freedom of speech is that everyone gets it, even people are stupid as Willie Brown ( the name which the clown who keeps emailing me uses. I'd laugh if it was his real name. ) True enough Christian, and yet your god will condemn me to an eternity in hell simply because I have a different opinion to him. Obviously he has a low opinion of freedom of thought (not even taking it as far as speech). ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Normally, I'd laugh at a joke like this. What joke?? I don't want to leave an impression that implies I have anything less than the highest respect for God's Words. Would these be his english words, his hebrew words, his arabic words, his greek words or his latin words? ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Materialist have no physical explanation for human behaviour but yet insist that it is physical anyway, even though they have no physical proof. That, my friend, is not science but scientism. If true, you'd be right. But the finer points escape you yet again - "materialists have no physical explanation for human behaviour, but assume/conclude that it is physical anyway..." The difference is critical - without knowing, we can draw tentative conclusions. What makes it worse is that religious people clearly make the point that God exists outside of time and space is impenetrable to our scientific instruments. A verifiable god would be a man-invented god. But materialists insist on a 100% physical reality, so the onus is on them to have physical explanations, and when they don't, they insist it is physical anyway. You're quite correct - theists should not waste time on proof, since a (scientifically) provable god is not what they believe in. You "believe", and *must* believe - there never can be proof. However, a materialist is free to 'believe' that proof will one day be delivered. "Not done yet" is a long way from "can't be done". ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Don't ask. Christian always says this - he has experienced miracles, including faith healing. Then he backs away from providing details. Says that he can't actually provide verified evidence, so we have to just believe that he has indeed seen miracles. I haven't pushed him too hard on this because it seems he is reluctant to get into the details, and I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume there is a "personal" dimension here that he'd rather not discuss in an open, public, forum. Christian, I wish you'd either stop saying this, or start posting some details (and verification) of these miracles. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

John, So what you're saying is that the bible's all rubbish, right? :) ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

I haven't seen my commission yet... It's in the mail. Of course, you can choose to 'roll over' any accrued benefits into our "afterlife-plus" package, which guarantees you access to the best cloud-top real estate in heaven (prices so cheap they're a steal! - oops, we mean 'bargain'). And a 'good for all eternity' ticket to our latest musical extravaganza "Dad and Jesus - keeping it in the family" (includes backstage pass and voucher for 10% off a JesusBurger and Coke). Of course, all new arrivals to heaven go into St. Peter's draw for our "lucky door prize" - this month's gift is a pass to see the taping of [Muslims look away now...] "Allah McBeal"! ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

I respect religion, and an individual's right to belief what they want - just so long as the can prove it if they decide to debate it with me. Actually, the key point should be "- just so long as they don't try to force their beliefs onto everyone else". Separation of Church and State is the cornerstone of modern society. We really need to make it clear that religion cannot be confused with governance. And god doesn't help athletes win gold medals, and actors win oscars. No really, he doesn't!! It's fun watching them run round in circles for three hours before the mindless name calling starts. Yes they do normally end in a vicious cycle of name calling. Except Mr Graus - tough nut to crack! I still think you're too damn smart and logical to *really* be a christian, Christian. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

Is it me or do religion bashers suddenly appear whenever their is a religious post in the lounge? Sorry, hope I'm not too late... They disappear as soon as these posting stop. Still time for a quick game of "kick the christian"? Is there a coalition that scours the internet for religion discussions and sends representatives to intervene? Probably not, but there should be. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

So the reference to Zork was an aside ? More a case of mistaken identity, I think. ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

I didn't know Infocom still existed ? They don't, and this story is refering to a different "InfoCom". ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------