no doubt ... that is MS's speciality. I never really understood the concept of people feeling great about themselves coding in Notepad and those other minimal featured editors. To me what's important is the analysis, design ... coz I can then teach my mother to do the rest of the coding.

Thanks! ... the analogies will certainly help.

My sister is getting into her first programming course and she has a tough time understanding the concept of "API". I have tried explaining it to her in different ways but failed to convey the message. Any ideas/simple examples on how to get her to understand would be great ... thanks!

Nishant Sivakumar wrote:

Usually truck drivers - they are invariably guaranteed to be drunk. I wonder why the cops don't do anything about it.

They do ... the accept bribe;P

Nah! ... its just that almost anyone can get a license :)

True, many projects can get by without master coders but its also true that many patients can get by with only prescriptions and no surgeries, many defendents can win cases with mediocre lawyers but does that in any way reduce the salaries of lawyers/doctors? NO ... then why should it for programmers?

David, Lets say a customer wants to pay taxes ... he has two choices ... go to HR block and get it done paying more or go online at Hrblock.com and get it done for $20(approx) bucks ... now why is that? When the online program has been written to replace a person should that have the same "value"? ... I think the customer needs to be charged the same amount either ways ...

I agree ... either we need to abolish formal computer science education or we need to make that a requirement like other engineering degrees ... boatloads of hackers sitting in their garages are never going to let this profession mature.

ok 122K isn't that less either :)

espeir wrote:

Not enough information. How much were selling costs? How much was the operations overhead minus pay (rent, utilities, etc...)? What equity positions did the developers have (if any) in the company? Who invested the money into the project and assumed the risk of that investment? What was the job market like for people in this field? It's not as simple as $1 million / 8.

While I agree that it isn't that simple I don't see why you would need to know this: Who invested the money into the project and assumed the risk of that investment? All I am asking is a percentage ... if PM gets x% and the average developer gets y% then you tell me how much x and y should be?

Chris Losinger wrote:

they should get whatever the person who hired them decided they should get.

Totally wrong ... who are they to decide your worth? Only you can put a price on your worth ... think about it. Of course all this should be ironed out before accepting the job offer.

Let's say the product sold for $1 mil Team size: 5 developers, 1 PM, 2 other staff Now break it down and tell me how much do u think the developers should get and the PM should get

Define "Market" ?

Kant wrote:

But if you cancel it before the COB then you are OK. But once business day passed then there is no turning back, because at night the host will process all the pending transactions and information is passed to other systems.

... which is clearly a flaw in their design ... they have not considered certain cases where in it might take a while for the check to make its way to the bank ... in the meanwhile the customer should be given the right to cancel the requested stop check payment feature ... but I guess that would be too customer-friendly for a banking institution that thrives on sucking every dollar ...

OK ... I probably went a little extreme ... and "maybe" they deserve what they get ... but relatively speaking a programmer should get the same or more ... don't you think?

Yes I have and I hated it ... I like using my mind more than my muscle. Manual labor was easy ... I knew what I had to do the next day ... everyday ... but today I don't know what freakin bug will show up and when I will get to go home. If you are talking construction labor then I agree the risks are high but then again you don't have to go home and train yourself in the new(er) art of using a power drill ...

Which bank did u move to and how are you finding their service? I have always seen that local credit unions are the best bet ... but if one is moving across the country all the time it makes sense to bank with the bigger ones.

Have you seen how much money people squeeze out of their professions? ... Compare that to ours and I will say we get an F grade in that category... For the amount of time we spend on learning new(er) technologies all the time and then using our creative thinking EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of the day I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ... If you think that is more then compare it with other professions ... are lawyers worth the $150K+ they usually make ... most lawyers printout the facts and read that in court confidently ... which the defendent himself would be able to do except that he isn't in the right state of mind at that moment. The lawyer has taken advantage of the defendent. Similarly Marketing and Sales professionals are also creative thinking people who make a ton of money compared to our measealey salaries (again this is compared to our efforts) Think for a couple minutes and you will find more of such professions... The worst comes when (software) Project Managers and alike do all the paperwork (well...they call it "Project Planning") and other secretary level tasks and get paid double of what the real programmers working "under" him gets paid. Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well ... maybe lesser than the "real" Doctors but close.

Just an FYI ... they charge $30 fee for it and if you don't call within the same day you requested the service they cannot revert it later ... talk about real-time crap They can have their $30 bucks but they just lost a home loan customer

hmm...so if I develop a full blown enterprise level website does that mean I developed a product?