Living in Canada
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Håkan Nilsson wrote:
cold sunny > -10 degrees wintertime.
That limits your choices dramatically. Everything from the Rocky Mountains in the west all the way to the east coast will get well below -10C in Winter. Even Toronto can have long stretches without it getting above -10. Also, if you want sunny winters then ask around because some places (I'm looking at you, Toronto) can be grey and gloomy in Winter. Further North (such as North Bay) get those stunning crystal clear winters but they are crazy cold. In BC the weather is far milder but Vancouver is very rainy for many months. >There must be good natural bathing with warm water > 18 degrees Just move to Australia :-D
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
FIX: A MFC program created in Visual Studio .NET 2003 unexpectedly quits when you try to close it[^]
Chris Maunder wrote:
Further North (such as North Bay) get those stunning crystal clear winters but they are crazy cold.
North Bay... X| I lived in Sudbury for 7 years (40 mins from North Bay by car). Worst 7 years of my life. Awful, awful, awful place. No culture, no happiness, no nothing except a big bloody nickel and a giant (suspiciously shaped) smokestack. When the wind blew the "right way" everything stunk of sulphur. Terrible hideous place of no value at all. Winters consistently -20C at the end of December and averaging -25C through January to March (with dips as low as -42C). I don't know how I survived that long in that place. Gah. North Bay is no better, it's even smaller and there's absolutely nothing there except some car dealerships, a few small boat marinas, a basically unoccupied military base and a black bear with a penchant for McDonald's grease bins. Also, the water is full of rotting leaves which stains everything brown with tannins. There was a huge effort to remove them (citing health reasons, specifically carcinogenicity when they are exposed to cloramines) and to clean up the water because it was terribly polluted and acidified from the nickel mine emissions - hence the crystal clearness. In North Bay, they dam Nippissing in the summer which drains the French River of needed water and makes things run stagnant and causes a great bloody algae smell... A terrible, terrible mess that desperately needs attention. In conclusion, don't live in North Bay.
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VAIO Blue wrote:
IMO, the best place in Canada is Vancouver.
Shucks - haven't been there. But everyone says it's the most beautiful city in Canada.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Vancouver is not just beautiful, it is spectacular!
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Canadians out there and the rest of you who knews a lot of Canada, help me! I'm thinking about taking two or three years abroad with my family - wife and three children. Main reasons are: the children will learn proper english and we want to see something more than sweden for a longer time. We have just been traveling in Europe on our vacations, we have never been in the States or Canada, but I think Canada could be just fine. We live in Örebro, Sweden and if you look on the map and follow the latitude you will find yourself in southern Alaska, but we got about 20-30 degrees summertime and minus 5-25 wintertime. Now to the questions: 1) Which town should we head for? Criterias: English as 1:st language, there are soccer teams for my sons to play in (8, 13 years old). Some of us like hot temperatures at summertime and cold sunny > -10 degrees wintertime. We like skiing both downhill and cross country (ok, I like both, rest if the family just downhill :)) There must be good natural bathing with warm water > 18 degrees). We want to travel mostly by bike to school or work. Oh, what a list of demands! :-D 2) Working? How is the market for DBA:s / SQL Server programmers? My wife is occupational therapist, but maybee she could do something different just for fun halftime or so. 3) Get paid? What about the wages for senior developers/DBA:s 4) Administration, papers, permissions, formalia and... and so on. What do we need Anyone? All comments are welcome!
/Håkan Nilsson ------------------------------------------------ - Old fashion C programmer since 1988 - Bachelor in systems analysis 1991 - Systems developer at work with C#, SQL Server... - DBA, database design, SQL, admin ------------------------------------------------
Hi Håkan, 1) Based on your criteria I would consider either Vancouver or Ottawa. Ottawa can get cold in the winter (below -10C would be normal in January and February), but on the other hand if you like the outdoors there are lots of winter sports. Vancouver is rainy all winter (like never see the sun for four months), but comparitively warm. In the summer both are great. Vancouver has the ocean and mountains and warm weather, Ottawa has hot weather and lakes and rivers and hills. Ottawa is fairly close to Montreal and Toronto, and a reasonable drive away from interesting American cities like Boston and New York. Vancouver is close to Seattle. Vancouver is a big city, so you might drive a lot, depending on where you live. Ottawa is a smaller city (< 1M), so it is easy to bike to work or downtown or into the countryside. Vancouver housing is very expensive (by Canadian standards), Ottawa's is reasonable. 2) Both Vancouver and Ottawa have good high tech communities. Ottawa's is large due to the telecom and government sectors. Healthcare workers are in demand in Canada, but as someone else noted you need to be careful the professional qualifications will be portable. My impression is that European degrees are recognized, but the specifics vary from province to province, since health care is a provincial responsibility. 3) Wages vary a lot depending on industry and specific company. A senior developer could be anywhere from C$80k to C$120k. I think the salary for an occupational therapist would be around the $50k range. 4) I'm not sure about the immigration paperwork, being a native myself. Canada gives preference to skilled workers. Have a look at this government web site for lots of good info: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/index.html I hope this helps. Good luck! Regards, Doug
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Canadians out there and the rest of you who knews a lot of Canada, help me! I'm thinking about taking two or three years abroad with my family - wife and three children. Main reasons are: the children will learn proper english and we want to see something more than sweden for a longer time. We have just been traveling in Europe on our vacations, we have never been in the States or Canada, but I think Canada could be just fine. We live in Örebro, Sweden and if you look on the map and follow the latitude you will find yourself in southern Alaska, but we got about 20-30 degrees summertime and minus 5-25 wintertime. Now to the questions: 1) Which town should we head for? Criterias: English as 1:st language, there are soccer teams for my sons to play in (8, 13 years old). Some of us like hot temperatures at summertime and cold sunny > -10 degrees wintertime. We like skiing both downhill and cross country (ok, I like both, rest if the family just downhill :)) There must be good natural bathing with warm water > 18 degrees). We want to travel mostly by bike to school or work. Oh, what a list of demands! :-D 2) Working? How is the market for DBA:s / SQL Server programmers? My wife is occupational therapist, but maybee she could do something different just for fun halftime or so. 3) Get paid? What about the wages for senior developers/DBA:s 4) Administration, papers, permissions, formalia and... and so on. What do we need Anyone? All comments are welcome!
/Håkan Nilsson ------------------------------------------------ - Old fashion C programmer since 1988 - Bachelor in systems analysis 1991 - Systems developer at work with C#, SQL Server... - DBA, database design, SQL, admin ------------------------------------------------
Sounds like you are describing Vancouver. In the winter you can go up to the mountains for skiing etc. Your sons can play soccer, there is plenty of work. However it is a big city so if that's not what you're after you might not want to live there. Lot's of people go to Toronto, I lived there for a while, it sucks unless all you want is a big city. The people are hugely self obsessed, the weather isn't pleasant and any possibility of going to unspoiled nature just doesn't exist within any reasonable distance. You might as well live in any city if you pick Toronto. I've always heard good things about the eastern coast of Canada, it's should also meet your criteria. It's not as affluent an economy as western Canada, but the nature is supposed to be nice, no big mountains of course, at least not by what we could call them out west here. Honestly you have no hope unless you travel here first and go to the major areas of interest. In general most europeans that are into nature seem to end up in the far north of Canada, I know a *lot* of people living in North Eastern B.C. from Europe who enjoy the outdoors, hunting, fishing that kind of thing and still work as computer network techs etc becasue of the oil and gas industry there where there is a lot of work for all sorts of professions.
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Håkan Nilsson wrote:
cold sunny > -10 degrees wintertime.
That limits your choices dramatically. Everything from the Rocky Mountains in the west all the way to the east coast will get well below -10C in Winter. Even Toronto can have long stretches without it getting above -10. Also, if you want sunny winters then ask around because some places (I'm looking at you, Toronto) can be grey and gloomy in Winter. Further North (such as North Bay) get those stunning crystal clear winters but they are crazy cold. In BC the weather is far milder but Vancouver is very rainy for many months. >There must be good natural bathing with warm water > 18 degrees Just move to Australia :-D
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
FIX: A MFC program created in Visual Studio .NET 2003 unexpectedly quits when you try to close it[^]
You seriously need to spend some time out in B.C. you're giving descriptions based on Ontario half truths and rumours. ;P I lived for years in B.C. in places where it rarely went above -20c all winter and other places where it was sunny almost all winter and of course places where it rained a lot all winter. B.C. has areas that represent every single one of the world's major climactic zones. There is no sweeping generalization that can be made about it. You can live in a desert with cacti in the north or the south, a tropical rainforest, tundra, whatever you want.
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You seriously need to spend some time out in B.C. you're giving descriptions based on Ontario half truths and rumours. ;P I lived for years in B.C. in places where it rarely went above -20c all winter and other places where it was sunny almost all winter and of course places where it rained a lot all winter. B.C. has areas that represent every single one of the world's major climactic zones. There is no sweeping generalization that can be made about it. You can live in a desert with cacti in the north or the south, a tropical rainforest, tundra, whatever you want.
OK, so when I say "BC" I mean "the area around Victoria, Vancouver and Whistler". You're correct in that I really should be more specific about the nature of my sweeping, narrow sighted generalisations :D (PS. I just read that some refer to BC as "Before Common sense". I reckon there's a story in there somewhere :D )
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
FIX: A MFC program created in Visual Studio .NET 2003 unexpectedly quits when you try to close it[^]
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Further North (such as North Bay) get those stunning crystal clear winters but they are crazy cold.
North Bay... X| I lived in Sudbury for 7 years (40 mins from North Bay by car). Worst 7 years of my life. Awful, awful, awful place. No culture, no happiness, no nothing except a big bloody nickel and a giant (suspiciously shaped) smokestack. When the wind blew the "right way" everything stunk of sulphur. Terrible hideous place of no value at all. Winters consistently -20C at the end of December and averaging -25C through January to March (with dips as low as -42C). I don't know how I survived that long in that place. Gah. North Bay is no better, it's even smaller and there's absolutely nothing there except some car dealerships, a few small boat marinas, a basically unoccupied military base and a black bear with a penchant for McDonald's grease bins. Also, the water is full of rotting leaves which stains everything brown with tannins. There was a huge effort to remove them (citing health reasons, specifically carcinogenicity when they are exposed to cloramines) and to clean up the water because it was terribly polluted and acidified from the nickel mine emissions - hence the crystal clearness. In North Bay, they dam Nippissing in the summer which drains the French River of needed water and makes things run stagnant and causes a great bloody algae smell... A terrible, terrible mess that desperately needs attention. In conclusion, don't live in North Bay.
David Cunningham grew up in North Bay. You've given me so much material to work with it's almost unfair :D
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
FIX: A MFC program created in Visual Studio .NET 2003 unexpectedly quits when you try to close it[^]
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Proper English = United States. From what I have read in numerous locations. US English is closer to 1700 English than british English. Plus our spellings are better. Go to Quebec! The are seperatist, warm, and caring, other than the fact they speak French you'll be fine.
On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Plus our spellings are better
Must...not...take...bait..
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
FIX: A MFC program created in Visual Studio .NET 2003 unexpectedly quits when you try to close it[^]
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Vancouver is not just beautiful, it is spectacular!
Vivic wrote:
Vancouver is not just beautiful, it is spectacular!
Damn, I gotta visit then!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
OK, so when I say "BC" I mean "the area around Victoria, Vancouver and Whistler". You're correct in that I really should be more specific about the nature of my sweeping, narrow sighted generalisations :D (PS. I just read that some refer to BC as "Before Common sense". I reckon there's a story in there somewhere :D )
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
FIX: A MFC program created in Visual Studio .NET 2003 unexpectedly quits when you try to close it[^]
Ahh then in local vernacular you want to say "The lower mainland and victoria".
Chris Maunder wrote:
PS. I just read that some refer to BC as "Before Common sense". I reckon there's a story in there somewhere
The typical Ontarians picture of a B.C. person is that they are high on pot sitting in a hot tub swilling lattes and red wine while meditating. :) Of course I don't know anybody that would do anything remotely like that. ;) I once worked for a guy while I was temping in Ottawa who had visited B.C. and was truly and utterly shocked that bank tellers were wearing blue jeans. It was probably casual friday at the bank but I had fun spreading more misinformation about B.C. The truth is that the people are very different wherever you go here, some are all industrious and business like, people in the oil and gas area in north eastern b.c. are maniacs that work until they drop dead and there are a *lot* of millionares up there wearing ripped up jeans and you would never know it to look at them. People on Vancouver island on average are pretty much the prototypical bc'er from an Ontarians perspective. Laid back, happy to make enough to live and no more, sybaritic. Many people here are just happy to make enough to go mountain biking in the summer and snowboarding in the winter. Slackers really, even the middle aged.
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David Cunningham grew up in North Bay. You've given me so much material to work with it's almost unfair :D
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
FIX: A MFC program created in Visual Studio .NET 2003 unexpectedly quits when you try to close it[^]
Chris Maunder wrote:
David Cunningham grew up in North Bay.
:-D Poor bugger.
Chris Maunder wrote:
You've given me so much material to work with it's almost unfair
You can compensate me later. ;)
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Ahh then in local vernacular you want to say "The lower mainland and victoria".
Chris Maunder wrote:
PS. I just read that some refer to BC as "Before Common sense". I reckon there's a story in there somewhere
The typical Ontarians picture of a B.C. person is that they are high on pot sitting in a hot tub swilling lattes and red wine while meditating. :) Of course I don't know anybody that would do anything remotely like that. ;) I once worked for a guy while I was temping in Ottawa who had visited B.C. and was truly and utterly shocked that bank tellers were wearing blue jeans. It was probably casual friday at the bank but I had fun spreading more misinformation about B.C. The truth is that the people are very different wherever you go here, some are all industrious and business like, people in the oil and gas area in north eastern b.c. are maniacs that work until they drop dead and there are a *lot* of millionares up there wearing ripped up jeans and you would never know it to look at them. People on Vancouver island on average are pretty much the prototypical bc'er from an Ontarians perspective. Laid back, happy to make enough to live and no more, sybaritic. Many people here are just happy to make enough to go mountain biking in the summer and snowboarding in the winter. Slackers really, even the middle aged.
John Cardinal wrote:
Slackers really, even the middle aged.
Slackers supported by transfer payments from Ontario! Ha! I am submitting your post to my local MP as "evidence"! ;P
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I'm aware of that, she needs to upgrade some examina /Håkan
/Håkan Nilsson ------------------------------------------------ - Old fashion C programmer since 1988 - Bachelor in systems analysis 1991 - Systems developer at work with C#, SQL Server... - DBA, database design, SQL, admin ------------------------------------------------
Sadly it is probably a little more complicated than that. I would really encourage you to dig extremely deep on this matter and check multiple sources. I cant tell you how many stories we hear in Vancouver (I live thereabouts) where there are Doctors and Engineers that are working as taxi drivers for years before (if they ever..) get their certifications required to work in Canada. Our systems are very backwards in that respect. So far your desired description of a place to stay describes Vancouver perfectly, except that there is not too much sunshine in the Winter. Mainly overcast and rain. Temperatures rarely below -5C in Winter (usually 4-10C). Good luck. David
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Canadians out there and the rest of you who knews a lot of Canada, help me! I'm thinking about taking two or three years abroad with my family - wife and three children. Main reasons are: the children will learn proper english and we want to see something more than sweden for a longer time. We have just been traveling in Europe on our vacations, we have never been in the States or Canada, but I think Canada could be just fine. We live in Örebro, Sweden and if you look on the map and follow the latitude you will find yourself in southern Alaska, but we got about 20-30 degrees summertime and minus 5-25 wintertime. Now to the questions: 1) Which town should we head for? Criterias: English as 1:st language, there are soccer teams for my sons to play in (8, 13 years old). Some of us like hot temperatures at summertime and cold sunny > -10 degrees wintertime. We like skiing both downhill and cross country (ok, I like both, rest if the family just downhill :)) There must be good natural bathing with warm water > 18 degrees). We want to travel mostly by bike to school or work. Oh, what a list of demands! :-D 2) Working? How is the market for DBA:s / SQL Server programmers? My wife is occupational therapist, but maybee she could do something different just for fun halftime or so. 3) Get paid? What about the wages for senior developers/DBA:s 4) Administration, papers, permissions, formalia and... and so on. What do we need Anyone? All comments are welcome!
/Håkan Nilsson ------------------------------------------------ - Old fashion C programmer since 1988 - Bachelor in systems analysis 1991 - Systems developer at work with C#, SQL Server... - DBA, database design, SQL, admin ------------------------------------------------
Wow, you pretty much described where I live: Kamloops[^] British Columbia. - Self proclaimed tournament capital of Canada. (It may, in fact, be true - it's unbelievable how many sporting events happen here). - Soccer, soccer and more soccer. There are leagues for you, your wife, your kids. You name it. - It was 35 celcius two days ago, high so far this year 41. Winters sometimes dip below -10, but not for long. - Skiing. We have the Sun Peaks[^] resort a mere 40 minute drive away. In fact the Austrian Olympic team has already booked Sun Peaks for their pre-2010 olympic training site. - British Columbia and Alberta are both in an economic boom right now, so job possibilities are pretty good. - Lots of people bike here. Lots of road biking and there are tonnes of mountain bike trails and parks. - Scenery. If you've seen the movie "An Unfinished Life" with Jennifer Lopez and Robert Redford you'll see what I mean (it was filmed in and around here). - Proximity. 3.5 hour drive to Vancouver, 7.5 hour drive to Calgary through the Rocky Mountains. Both are spectacular drives. Take a look at the promo page[^] Can you tell I like it here? Hope this helps. Cheers, Drew.
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It's a two-language country. Immigration certainly requires a certain proficiency in French.
Asynes yw brassa ages kwilkynyow.
Obviously you have not been to Vancouver. Huge population of Asian and Indian immigants Main languages spoken out west: English Manadarin/Cantonese Hindi and other Indian langauges German French And the prevalence is roughly in that order. I doubt most of the asian immigrants except the Vietnamese (and one or two others) speak any French whatsoever when they come to the country. David.
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Canadians out there and the rest of you who knews a lot of Canada, help me! I'm thinking about taking two or three years abroad with my family - wife and three children. Main reasons are: the children will learn proper english and we want to see something more than sweden for a longer time. We have just been traveling in Europe on our vacations, we have never been in the States or Canada, but I think Canada could be just fine. We live in Örebro, Sweden and if you look on the map and follow the latitude you will find yourself in southern Alaska, but we got about 20-30 degrees summertime and minus 5-25 wintertime. Now to the questions: 1) Which town should we head for? Criterias: English as 1:st language, there are soccer teams for my sons to play in (8, 13 years old). Some of us like hot temperatures at summertime and cold sunny > -10 degrees wintertime. We like skiing both downhill and cross country (ok, I like both, rest if the family just downhill :)) There must be good natural bathing with warm water > 18 degrees). We want to travel mostly by bike to school or work. Oh, what a list of demands! :-D 2) Working? How is the market for DBA:s / SQL Server programmers? My wife is occupational therapist, but maybee she could do something different just for fun halftime or so. 3) Get paid? What about the wages for senior developers/DBA:s 4) Administration, papers, permissions, formalia and... and so on. What do we need Anyone? All comments are welcome!
/Håkan Nilsson ------------------------------------------------ - Old fashion C programmer since 1988 - Bachelor in systems analysis 1991 - Systems developer at work with C#, SQL Server... - DBA, database design, SQL, admin ------------------------------------------------
Sounds like Kelowna, BC is what you are after. Water skiing, snow skiing, mountain biking. Winters are mild and rarely hit -10. Summers are pleasant with July reaching 30 on a regular basis. Population is around 100,000 and we have a international airport. Job market is a little tougher but if you're the best there is then you won't have a hard time finding work. Housing market is comparable with Calgary and some parts of Vancouver. Not much in the way of rentals.
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OK, I now got Vancouver, Toronta and Ottawa in my "look for list". The thing that could be a problem is that myfamily life right now is so easy. 10 mins bike to work, living in a villa in a city center (Örebro, Sweden) a lot of activities for my family. The easist thing is to stay at home, but that's right it's too easy! I knew that Canada is not another Sovjet state so I'm sure I can somehow select my own living! I'm just surprised that I will be called immigrant in Canada. We don't call folks from north-america immigrants in Sweden. Immigrants in Sweden are people from Afghanistan or Bosnia, north-americans are settlers. It's a "north-south-east-west-cultural-thing" in sweden.
/Håkan Nilsson ------------------------------------------------ - Old fashion C programmer since 1988 - Bachelor in systems analysis 1991 - Systems developer at work with C#, SQL Server... - DBA, database design, SQL, admin ------------------------------------------------
Squamish just up north a bit from Vancouver, BC is known world-wide as capital for outdoors activities - rock climbing, hiking, mountain biking, rafting, kite boarding, you name it... It's beautiful part of country for sure! I'm a bit envious that you have the means/adventurous spirit to up and move to a whole different country. Right now, if I was in your position, I'd definately put Vancouver at the very top of my list. I regularly drive up from Oregon to ride at Whistler just up the road from Squamish (that's also a world class skiing destination I hear but that's not my bag...) I like downhill mountain biking and Whistler, BC is the mecca!
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Canadians out there and the rest of you who knews a lot of Canada, help me! I'm thinking about taking two or three years abroad with my family - wife and three children. Main reasons are: the children will learn proper english and we want to see something more than sweden for a longer time. We have just been traveling in Europe on our vacations, we have never been in the States or Canada, but I think Canada could be just fine. We live in Örebro, Sweden and if you look on the map and follow the latitude you will find yourself in southern Alaska, but we got about 20-30 degrees summertime and minus 5-25 wintertime. Now to the questions: 1) Which town should we head for? Criterias: English as 1:st language, there are soccer teams for my sons to play in (8, 13 years old). Some of us like hot temperatures at summertime and cold sunny > -10 degrees wintertime. We like skiing both downhill and cross country (ok, I like both, rest if the family just downhill :)) There must be good natural bathing with warm water > 18 degrees). We want to travel mostly by bike to school or work. Oh, what a list of demands! :-D 2) Working? How is the market for DBA:s / SQL Server programmers? My wife is occupational therapist, but maybee she could do something different just for fun halftime or so. 3) Get paid? What about the wages for senior developers/DBA:s 4) Administration, papers, permissions, formalia and... and so on. What do we need Anyone? All comments are welcome!
/Håkan Nilsson ------------------------------------------------ - Old fashion C programmer since 1988 - Bachelor in systems analysis 1991 - Systems developer at work with C#, SQL Server... - DBA, database design, SQL, admin ------------------------------------------------
Having recently travelled a couple of times to Sweden I think you will find that the Canadian and Swedish people are very similar. I live North of the Toronto area and have found that our summer and winter climates are _very_ similar to Stockholm. Come to Toronto; work in the city, commute from the subburbs. And if you want to have a chance to see the best Swedish hockey player (Mats Sundin of course) in action you have to chose T.O. for the Maple Leafs
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John Cardinal wrote:
Slackers really, even the middle aged.
Slackers supported by transfer payments from Ontario! Ha! I am submitting your post to my local MP as "evidence"! ;P
That's the price you pay for being "central" canada...eat it with a fork! :laugh: Actually to be honest there are very few ski bum type slackers on welfare that I know of, most just work enough to get by in typical slacker type jobs. Technically "working poor" but loving every minute of it.
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Plus our spellings are better
Must...not...take...bait..
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
FIX: A MFC program created in Visual Studio .NET 2003 unexpectedly quits when you try to close it[^]
I figured someone would like that.
On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage