Silverlight 1.0 released, Linux support announced
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CPHog working in Silverlight yet? :P
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Great Scott! I hadn't even considered it, but now that i have, superfluous animation is exactly what's been lacking! :D ...And it'll be just perfect once i get the CodeProject theme song playing on each page load... :rolleyes:
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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martin_hughes wrote:
For me (and I suspect a good few people of this very parish) getting away from the nightmarish HTML/CSS/JavaScript triumvirate is the real blessing - being able design good looking functionality quickly, with cross browser compatibility and with a high degree of maintainability, without having to summon the evil demons of CSS-P.
And break the web while delivering it into Microsoft control. Please don't. (BTW this comment is equally true for Adobe and Flash. I'm not anti-Microsoft. I'm anti bad usages of technology.) -- modified at 12:55 Wednesday 5th September, 2007
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
And break the web while delivering it into Microsoft control. Please don't.
Why not? The web is broken anyway.
Me: Can you see the "up" arrow? User:Errr...ummm....no. Me: Can you see an arrow that points upwards? User: Oh yes, I see it now! -Excerpt from a support call taken by me, 08/31/2007
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Absolutely 100% incorrect. I've been checking my assemblies using their MOMA tool for years now and they, to this day, have still not implemented setting a cursor on a form and decimal.round midpoint rounding to choose two things at random. These are both fundamentally important, very basic and required for modern applications, absolutely required for business applications to round money values properly. They put in an initial heavy surge to get close to .net 2.0 compatibility then all I started hearing from them was about Moonlight and other projects and not a word about getting the fundamental's done. They have, to this day, still not implemented a way to set a cursor in a winform project. I would be totally understanding if they didn't have .net 3 in their sights yet, but failing at this point to finish .net 1.0 stuff in favour of "sexier" projects gives me no confidence in the project or it's direction whatsoever. At one point they were saying they were going to be working on a compatibility layer of some kind to deal with the most common p/invokes so that the huge volume of 3rd party librarires for reporting and ui etc could run on MONO. That was a brilliant idea and would have cemented the deal for a hell of a lot of developers. No word about it now, completely off the radar. The original intent of having thousands of microsoft.net applications being run on Linux and others is now dead in the water.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
Well then, i suppose you know what it feels like to have a browser ignore your favorite CSS style, or image format, or what have you now... :rolleyes:
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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Great Scott! I hadn't even considered it, but now that i have, superfluous animation is exactly what's been lacking! :D ...And it'll be just perfect once i get the CodeProject theme song playing on each page load... :rolleyes:
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
My work here is done. How I love the sound of Microsoft stock tinkling into my account.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Paul Watson wrote:
And break the web while delivering it into Microsoft control. Please don't.
Why not? The web is broken anyway.
Me: Can you see the "up" arrow? User:Errr...ummm....no. Me: Can you see an arrow that points upwards? User: Oh yes, I see it now! -Excerpt from a support call taken by me, 08/31/2007
I'm listening.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Judah Himango wrote:
You can't always use somebody else's code, sometimes you have to write your own.
You... do realize, you're discussing a glorified vector graphics plugin, right? It's still someone else's code... ;)
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
Yes, and it's easier to do some things with this glorified VG plugin than it is with vanilla JS. [cue collective, "aahhhhhhh" sound]
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Judah Himango wrote:
And writing your own in this case would be extremely painful and time consuming using vanilla JS.
What do you mean by vanilla JS? We roll our own JS components and plugins frequently. In the coverflow case we've looked at the code and it is a modification of routine carousel style components. Bottom line is that it is pure JS and CSS, no binary installers to install. You just include the script and it works. You don't have to get your user to install a plugin. I'm not saying JS is easy. It isn't, though the primary reason for that is the newness of this level of JS. In a few years most JS programmers will be up to speed with it. For now they can use the plugins and it works fine.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
I'm not saying JS is easy.
Good, we agree. My point was that it's easier to do some things with Silverlight than with plain old JS, and also Silverlight gives you things JS can't do. That's all, we don't have to get religious about it.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Paul Watson wrote:
I'm not saying JS is easy.
Good, we agree. My point was that it's easier to do some things with Silverlight than with plain old JS, and also Silverlight gives you things JS can't do. That's all, we don't have to get religious about it.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Sure but there is plenty you can do with Java Applets that you can't do with JS. Doesn't mean you should. Anyway. Back to my JavaScript Bible...
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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John Cardinal wrote:
I've been checking my assemblies using their MOMA tool for years now
Hey now, Moma was released earlier this year (late last?), so that must be a little exaggeration? :) My point is that MS is putting out new technologies really fast. You're right that Mono focuses their efforts on the latest and greatest, however. Who can blame them? The new stuff is sexy and gets all the attention, and everyone loves to play with the new stuff. I feel your pain though. Maybe we can do some Mono hacking ourselves? Or at least talk to some people that could fill the gaping holes.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
I sort of shortened it for brevity, before MOMA I tried compiling and just looking at the list of incomplete methods and assemblies.
Judah Himango wrote:
My point is that MS is putting out new technologies really fast.
Meh. I don't really agree with that, I think there have been a lot recently, but the pace isn't really any greater than it has been in the past in other software domains I've worked in.
Judah Himango wrote:
You're right that Mono focuses their efforts on the latest and greatest, however. Who can blame them? The new stuff is sexy and gets all the attention, and everyone loves to play with the new stuff.
I can blame them and do, it's just plain laziness and lack of focus, I don't normally expect more from an open source project but in this case Novell is actually paying programmers to work on it so why they don't pay them to finish off at least the .net 1.1 stuff and ideally the .net 2 stuff is beyond me.
Judah Himango wrote:
Maybe we can do some Mono hacking ourselves?
If I had the time I would, just out of self interest in opening a bigger market for my products. I just hate to see a good idea die on the vine. It's a waste.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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I just don't want these well meaning but ignorant chaps to go down the wrong road. They have plenty to contribute to the web, it just isn't through Silverlight.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
They have plenty to contribute to the web, it just isn't through Silverlight.
Yes, they need to refocus it to using Ruby written on their new iMacs. ;) By the way, did you know Silverlight is programmable using Ruby? See Jon Lam's blog (iunknown.com).
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Well then, i suppose you know what it feels like to have a browser ignore your favorite CSS style, or image format, or what have you now... :rolleyes:
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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Absolutely 100% incorrect. I've been checking my assemblies using their MOMA tool for years now and they, to this day, have still not implemented setting a cursor on a form and decimal.round midpoint rounding to choose two things at random. These are both fundamentally important, very basic and required for modern applications, absolutely required for business applications to round money values properly. They put in an initial heavy surge to get close to .net 2.0 compatibility then all I started hearing from them was about Moonlight and other projects and not a word about getting the fundamental's done. They have, to this day, still not implemented a way to set a cursor in a winform project. I would be totally understanding if they didn't have .net 3 in their sights yet, but failing at this point to finish .net 1.0 stuff in favour of "sexier" projects gives me no confidence in the project or it's direction whatsoever. At one point they were saying they were going to be working on a compatibility layer of some kind to deal with the most common p/invokes so that the huge volume of 3rd party librarires for reporting and ui etc could run on MONO. That was a brilliant idea and would have cemented the deal for a hell of a lot of developers. No word about it now, completely off the radar. The original intent of having thousands of microsoft.net applications being run on Linux and others is now dead in the water.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
John Cardinal wrote:
At one point they were saying they were going to be working on a compatibility layer of some kind to deal with the most common p/invokes so that the huge volume of 3rd party librarires for reporting and ui etc could run on MONO. That was a brilliant idea and would have cemented the deal for a hell of a lot of developers.
Actually, I believe this is done. I recall reading something like Mono.Compatibility dll...Miguel blogged about it when talking about how they ported Paint.NET and the many P/Invokes it used.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I think what you're seeing is less a failure of Mono and more of an indication of the rapid rate MS is putting out new technology; MS-centric developers can hardly keep up on all the new stuff, let alone a much smaller company that is trying to provide compatible stacks for most MS technologies on Linux. By the way, is there something in particular you'd like to see implemented in Mono? 100% compatibility is a lofty goal that won't be achieved (e.g. do we really need System.EnterpriseServices on Mono? How about the LDAP stuff?). But I'd say Mono has enough built in so that most apps work, including big WinForms apps like Paint.NET
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
I think what you're seeing is less a failure of Mono and more of an indication of the rapid rate MS is putting out new technology; MS-centric developers can hardly keep up on all the new stuff, let alone a much smaller company that is trying to provide compatible stacks for most MS technologies on Linux.
So very true.
If you're struggling developing software, then I'd recommend gardening.
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Paul Watson wrote:
They have plenty to contribute to the web, it just isn't through Silverlight.
Yes, they need to refocus it to using Ruby written on their new iMacs. ;) By the way, did you know Silverlight is programmable using Ruby? See Jon Lam's blog (iunknown.com).
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Yes, they need to refocus it to using Ruby written on their new iMacs.
LOL I don't care what people use on the back-end. They can use assembler for all I know. So long as it outputs HTML, CSS and JavaScript with good URL practices.
Judah Himango wrote:
By the way, did you know Silverlight is programmable using Ruby? See Jon Lam's blog (iunknown.com).
Yup. The script engine in Silverlight is the only thing I am interested in. Its speed over the browsers JS engine and support for Ruby, Python etc. But from what I am seeing there is still bit too much of a bridge between scripts inside Silverlight and the DOM surrounding it. Thankfully Mozilla is going to take that best idea from Silverlight and do it.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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John Cardinal wrote:
At one point they were saying they were going to be working on a compatibility layer of some kind to deal with the most common p/invokes so that the huge volume of 3rd party librarires for reporting and ui etc could run on MONO. That was a brilliant idea and would have cemented the deal for a hell of a lot of developers.
Actually, I believe this is done. I recall reading something like Mono.Compatibility dll...Miguel blogged about it when talking about how they ported Paint.NET and the many P/Invokes it used.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
News to me, I don't think you're correct about this. The goal was to provide a method to allow 3rd party libraries that use the most common p/invokes to still operate. Everything I read about paint.net was rewriting the invoking code to work one way or another. The third party library that paint.net used he just stripped out entirely.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Sure but there is plenty you can do with Java Applets that you can't do with JS. Doesn't mean you should. Anyway. Back to my JavaScript Bible...
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
Doesn't mean you should.
Not always. On the other hand, there are times where Flash/Java/WMP/QT/whatever actually should be used. It's in those places that Silverlight offers a good alternative.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I sort of shortened it for brevity, before MOMA I tried compiling and just looking at the list of incomplete methods and assemblies.
Judah Himango wrote:
My point is that MS is putting out new technologies really fast.
Meh. I don't really agree with that, I think there have been a lot recently, but the pace isn't really any greater than it has been in the past in other software domains I've worked in.
Judah Himango wrote:
You're right that Mono focuses their efforts on the latest and greatest, however. Who can blame them? The new stuff is sexy and gets all the attention, and everyone loves to play with the new stuff.
I can blame them and do, it's just plain laziness and lack of focus, I don't normally expect more from an open source project but in this case Novell is actually paying programmers to work on it so why they don't pay them to finish off at least the .net 1.1 stuff and ideally the .net 2 stuff is beyond me.
Judah Himango wrote:
Maybe we can do some Mono hacking ourselves?
If I had the time I would, just out of self interest in opening a bigger market for my products. I just hate to see a good idea die on the vine. It's a waste.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
John Cardinal wrote:
Meh. I don't really agree with that, I think there have been a lot recently, but the pace isn't really any greater than it has been in the past in other software domains I've worked in.
Really? So you're on top of IronRuby, the DLR, Acropolis, WPF, LINQ, System.AddIns, WCF, and so on? Man, I'm trying to keep up...I just checked out IronRuby and the DLR for the first time this weekend. I've only skimmed Acropolis, and I'm still learning WPF. It never used to pile on like this. I'm glad MS is pushing excellent stuff through the .NET framework, it's just a lot to take in so much.
John Cardinal wrote:
If I had the time I would, just out of self interest in opening a bigger market for my products.
Maybe for fun I'll checkout Mono sources this week and see if I can start by fixing your cursor setting missing functionality. :) Should be a fun learning experience. Maybe I'll add Mono hacking to my list[^]. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Yes, and it's easier to do some things with this glorified VG plugin than it is with vanilla JS. [cue collective, "aahhhhhhh" sound]
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
What is this vanilla JS you keep mentioning? All JS is vanilla.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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News to me, I don't think you're correct about this. The goal was to provide a method to allow 3rd party libraries that use the most common p/invokes to still operate. Everything I read about paint.net was rewriting the invoking code to work one way or another. The third party library that paint.net used he just stripped out entirely.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
Is Mono's SupportW library[^] mentioned in this post what you're looking for? Unfortunately, the link in that post is broken, but you should be able to find it in the SVN checkout in any case.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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John Cardinal wrote:
Meh. I don't really agree with that, I think there have been a lot recently, but the pace isn't really any greater than it has been in the past in other software domains I've worked in.
Really? So you're on top of IronRuby, the DLR, Acropolis, WPF, LINQ, System.AddIns, WCF, and so on? Man, I'm trying to keep up...I just checked out IronRuby and the DLR for the first time this weekend. I've only skimmed Acropolis, and I'm still learning WPF. It never used to pile on like this. I'm glad MS is pushing excellent stuff through the .NET framework, it's just a lot to take in so much.
John Cardinal wrote:
If I had the time I would, just out of self interest in opening a bigger market for my products.
Maybe for fun I'll checkout Mono sources this week and see if I can start by fixing your cursor setting missing functionality. :) Should be a fun learning experience. Maybe I'll add Mono hacking to my list[^]. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
I know nothing about IronRuby since it's outside of my domain of interests or work right now. Acropolis and wpf are too infant to be of any concern at the moment however I do have a good wpf book and have studied up on the subjects quite thoroughly, enough to know it's not technology that's innovative enough to be useful quite yet as it's missing the most critically important thing to me which is writing a web browser and desktop app once, something they seem to be moving towards but not quite there yet. Linq I must admit is a complete mystery to me and something that I've looked at extremely lightly and don't quite *get* at all, but I'm sure it will all make sense when the time comes. To be fair this stuff is not coming all at once, I think I read about wcf a couple of years ago but either way it's not a *lot* of stuff and much of it you either need or you don't. I believe in learning deeply what you need when you need it and only skimming the rest to know if it's likely to be a useful tool or not. I still don't think it's a fraction of the amount of technology we had to deal with back in the mfc c++ days when you factor in all the huge amount of 3rd party libraries required to make even the most basic of my applications actually do something useful. When I think of all the installers and reporting suites and encryption libraries and writing my own web server and on and on and on I feel like .net has nicely wrapped everything up and made it much cleaner and simpler to deal with.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon