Silverlight 1.0 released, Linux support announced
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John Cardinal wrote:
I've been checking my assemblies using their MOMA tool for years now
Hey now, Moma was released earlier this year (late last?), so that must be a little exaggeration? :) My point is that MS is putting out new technologies really fast. You're right that Mono focuses their efforts on the latest and greatest, however. Who can blame them? The new stuff is sexy and gets all the attention, and everyone loves to play with the new stuff. I feel your pain though. Maybe we can do some Mono hacking ourselves? Or at least talk to some people that could fill the gaping holes.
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I sort of shortened it for brevity, before MOMA I tried compiling and just looking at the list of incomplete methods and assemblies.
Judah Himango wrote:
My point is that MS is putting out new technologies really fast.
Meh. I don't really agree with that, I think there have been a lot recently, but the pace isn't really any greater than it has been in the past in other software domains I've worked in.
Judah Himango wrote:
You're right that Mono focuses their efforts on the latest and greatest, however. Who can blame them? The new stuff is sexy and gets all the attention, and everyone loves to play with the new stuff.
I can blame them and do, it's just plain laziness and lack of focus, I don't normally expect more from an open source project but in this case Novell is actually paying programmers to work on it so why they don't pay them to finish off at least the .net 1.1 stuff and ideally the .net 2 stuff is beyond me.
Judah Himango wrote:
Maybe we can do some Mono hacking ourselves?
If I had the time I would, just out of self interest in opening a bigger market for my products. I just hate to see a good idea die on the vine. It's a waste.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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I just don't want these well meaning but ignorant chaps to go down the wrong road. They have plenty to contribute to the web, it just isn't through Silverlight.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
They have plenty to contribute to the web, it just isn't through Silverlight.
Yes, they need to refocus it to using Ruby written on their new iMacs. ;) By the way, did you know Silverlight is programmable using Ruby? See Jon Lam's blog (iunknown.com).
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Well then, i suppose you know what it feels like to have a browser ignore your favorite CSS style, or image format, or what have you now... :rolleyes:
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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Absolutely 100% incorrect. I've been checking my assemblies using their MOMA tool for years now and they, to this day, have still not implemented setting a cursor on a form and decimal.round midpoint rounding to choose two things at random. These are both fundamentally important, very basic and required for modern applications, absolutely required for business applications to round money values properly. They put in an initial heavy surge to get close to .net 2.0 compatibility then all I started hearing from them was about Moonlight and other projects and not a word about getting the fundamental's done. They have, to this day, still not implemented a way to set a cursor in a winform project. I would be totally understanding if they didn't have .net 3 in their sights yet, but failing at this point to finish .net 1.0 stuff in favour of "sexier" projects gives me no confidence in the project or it's direction whatsoever. At one point they were saying they were going to be working on a compatibility layer of some kind to deal with the most common p/invokes so that the huge volume of 3rd party librarires for reporting and ui etc could run on MONO. That was a brilliant idea and would have cemented the deal for a hell of a lot of developers. No word about it now, completely off the radar. The original intent of having thousands of microsoft.net applications being run on Linux and others is now dead in the water.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
John Cardinal wrote:
At one point they were saying they were going to be working on a compatibility layer of some kind to deal with the most common p/invokes so that the huge volume of 3rd party librarires for reporting and ui etc could run on MONO. That was a brilliant idea and would have cemented the deal for a hell of a lot of developers.
Actually, I believe this is done. I recall reading something like Mono.Compatibility dll...Miguel blogged about it when talking about how they ported Paint.NET and the many P/Invokes it used.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I think what you're seeing is less a failure of Mono and more of an indication of the rapid rate MS is putting out new technology; MS-centric developers can hardly keep up on all the new stuff, let alone a much smaller company that is trying to provide compatible stacks for most MS technologies on Linux. By the way, is there something in particular you'd like to see implemented in Mono? 100% compatibility is a lofty goal that won't be achieved (e.g. do we really need System.EnterpriseServices on Mono? How about the LDAP stuff?). But I'd say Mono has enough built in so that most apps work, including big WinForms apps like Paint.NET
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Judah Himango wrote:
I think what you're seeing is less a failure of Mono and more of an indication of the rapid rate MS is putting out new technology; MS-centric developers can hardly keep up on all the new stuff, let alone a much smaller company that is trying to provide compatible stacks for most MS technologies on Linux.
So very true.
If you're struggling developing software, then I'd recommend gardening.
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Paul Watson wrote:
They have plenty to contribute to the web, it just isn't through Silverlight.
Yes, they need to refocus it to using Ruby written on their new iMacs. ;) By the way, did you know Silverlight is programmable using Ruby? See Jon Lam's blog (iunknown.com).
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Yes, they need to refocus it to using Ruby written on their new iMacs.
LOL I don't care what people use on the back-end. They can use assembler for all I know. So long as it outputs HTML, CSS and JavaScript with good URL practices.
Judah Himango wrote:
By the way, did you know Silverlight is programmable using Ruby? See Jon Lam's blog (iunknown.com).
Yup. The script engine in Silverlight is the only thing I am interested in. Its speed over the browsers JS engine and support for Ruby, Python etc. But from what I am seeing there is still bit too much of a bridge between scripts inside Silverlight and the DOM surrounding it. Thankfully Mozilla is going to take that best idea from Silverlight and do it.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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John Cardinal wrote:
At one point they were saying they were going to be working on a compatibility layer of some kind to deal with the most common p/invokes so that the huge volume of 3rd party librarires for reporting and ui etc could run on MONO. That was a brilliant idea and would have cemented the deal for a hell of a lot of developers.
Actually, I believe this is done. I recall reading something like Mono.Compatibility dll...Miguel blogged about it when talking about how they ported Paint.NET and the many P/Invokes it used.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
News to me, I don't think you're correct about this. The goal was to provide a method to allow 3rd party libraries that use the most common p/invokes to still operate. Everything I read about paint.net was rewriting the invoking code to work one way or another. The third party library that paint.net used he just stripped out entirely.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Sure but there is plenty you can do with Java Applets that you can't do with JS. Doesn't mean you should. Anyway. Back to my JavaScript Bible...
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
Doesn't mean you should.
Not always. On the other hand, there are times where Flash/Java/WMP/QT/whatever actually should be used. It's in those places that Silverlight offers a good alternative.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I sort of shortened it for brevity, before MOMA I tried compiling and just looking at the list of incomplete methods and assemblies.
Judah Himango wrote:
My point is that MS is putting out new technologies really fast.
Meh. I don't really agree with that, I think there have been a lot recently, but the pace isn't really any greater than it has been in the past in other software domains I've worked in.
Judah Himango wrote:
You're right that Mono focuses their efforts on the latest and greatest, however. Who can blame them? The new stuff is sexy and gets all the attention, and everyone loves to play with the new stuff.
I can blame them and do, it's just plain laziness and lack of focus, I don't normally expect more from an open source project but in this case Novell is actually paying programmers to work on it so why they don't pay them to finish off at least the .net 1.1 stuff and ideally the .net 2 stuff is beyond me.
Judah Himango wrote:
Maybe we can do some Mono hacking ourselves?
If I had the time I would, just out of self interest in opening a bigger market for my products. I just hate to see a good idea die on the vine. It's a waste.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
John Cardinal wrote:
Meh. I don't really agree with that, I think there have been a lot recently, but the pace isn't really any greater than it has been in the past in other software domains I've worked in.
Really? So you're on top of IronRuby, the DLR, Acropolis, WPF, LINQ, System.AddIns, WCF, and so on? Man, I'm trying to keep up...I just checked out IronRuby and the DLR for the first time this weekend. I've only skimmed Acropolis, and I'm still learning WPF. It never used to pile on like this. I'm glad MS is pushing excellent stuff through the .NET framework, it's just a lot to take in so much.
John Cardinal wrote:
If I had the time I would, just out of self interest in opening a bigger market for my products.
Maybe for fun I'll checkout Mono sources this week and see if I can start by fixing your cursor setting missing functionality. :) Should be a fun learning experience. Maybe I'll add Mono hacking to my list[^]. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Yes, and it's easier to do some things with this glorified VG plugin than it is with vanilla JS. [cue collective, "aahhhhhhh" sound]
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
What is this vanilla JS you keep mentioning? All JS is vanilla.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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News to me, I don't think you're correct about this. The goal was to provide a method to allow 3rd party libraries that use the most common p/invokes to still operate. Everything I read about paint.net was rewriting the invoking code to work one way or another. The third party library that paint.net used he just stripped out entirely.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
Is Mono's SupportW library[^] mentioned in this post what you're looking for? Unfortunately, the link in that post is broken, but you should be able to find it in the SVN checkout in any case.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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John Cardinal wrote:
Meh. I don't really agree with that, I think there have been a lot recently, but the pace isn't really any greater than it has been in the past in other software domains I've worked in.
Really? So you're on top of IronRuby, the DLR, Acropolis, WPF, LINQ, System.AddIns, WCF, and so on? Man, I'm trying to keep up...I just checked out IronRuby and the DLR for the first time this weekend. I've only skimmed Acropolis, and I'm still learning WPF. It never used to pile on like this. I'm glad MS is pushing excellent stuff through the .NET framework, it's just a lot to take in so much.
John Cardinal wrote:
If I had the time I would, just out of self interest in opening a bigger market for my products.
Maybe for fun I'll checkout Mono sources this week and see if I can start by fixing your cursor setting missing functionality. :) Should be a fun learning experience. Maybe I'll add Mono hacking to my list[^]. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
I know nothing about IronRuby since it's outside of my domain of interests or work right now. Acropolis and wpf are too infant to be of any concern at the moment however I do have a good wpf book and have studied up on the subjects quite thoroughly, enough to know it's not technology that's innovative enough to be useful quite yet as it's missing the most critically important thing to me which is writing a web browser and desktop app once, something they seem to be moving towards but not quite there yet. Linq I must admit is a complete mystery to me and something that I've looked at extremely lightly and don't quite *get* at all, but I'm sure it will all make sense when the time comes. To be fair this stuff is not coming all at once, I think I read about wcf a couple of years ago but either way it's not a *lot* of stuff and much of it you either need or you don't. I believe in learning deeply what you need when you need it and only skimming the rest to know if it's likely to be a useful tool or not. I still don't think it's a fraction of the amount of technology we had to deal with back in the mfc c++ days when you factor in all the huge amount of 3rd party libraries required to make even the most basic of my applications actually do something useful. When I think of all the installers and reporting suites and encryption libraries and writing my own web server and on and on and on I feel like .net has nicely wrapped everything up and made it much cleaner and simpler to deal with.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Is Mono's SupportW library[^] mentioned in this post what you're looking for? Unfortunately, the link in that post is broken, but you should be able to find it in the SVN checkout in any case.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
SupportW, whatever it is, is nonexistant as far as I can tell. If the definitive tool for seeing if your application is supported, MOMA, doesn't indicate support (and it does check each p/invoke) then as far as I'm concerned it's just not supported. I have searched for this before but it's dropped off the radar so far that I can't find *any* info on it now. The thing is that it's easy enough to rewrite your own code to be compliant, but without the support of the really good 3rd party libraries that are out there I don't see how you can make anything commercially viable.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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News to me, I don't think you're correct about this. The goal was to provide a method to allow 3rd party libraries that use the most common p/invokes to still operate. Everything I read about paint.net was rewriting the invoking code to work one way or another. The third party library that paint.net used he just stripped out entirely.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
I just checked out Mono's SVN repository, and found this SupportW C library Miguel mentioned in that blog post. In short, you're right: while there are a few useful P/Invokes like SendMessageA, FindWindowExW, GetWindowLongA, SetWindowPos, it is by no means comprehensive.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I know nothing about IronRuby since it's outside of my domain of interests or work right now. Acropolis and wpf are too infant to be of any concern at the moment however I do have a good wpf book and have studied up on the subjects quite thoroughly, enough to know it's not technology that's innovative enough to be useful quite yet as it's missing the most critically important thing to me which is writing a web browser and desktop app once, something they seem to be moving towards but not quite there yet. Linq I must admit is a complete mystery to me and something that I've looked at extremely lightly and don't quite *get* at all, but I'm sure it will all make sense when the time comes. To be fair this stuff is not coming all at once, I think I read about wcf a couple of years ago but either way it's not a *lot* of stuff and much of it you either need or you don't. I believe in learning deeply what you need when you need it and only skimming the rest to know if it's likely to be a useful tool or not. I still don't think it's a fraction of the amount of technology we had to deal with back in the mfc c++ days when you factor in all the huge amount of 3rd party libraries required to make even the most basic of my applications actually do something useful. When I think of all the installers and reporting suites and encryption libraries and writing my own web server and on and on and on I feel like .net has nicely wrapped everything up and made it much cleaner and simpler to deal with.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
Right, John, we as developers don't necessarily have to learn everything. However, Mono is trying to provide compatible stacks for all this stuff, everything from LINQ to WPF to WCF to WinForms. Complete with the compiler and runtime backings all that implies. In other words, they actually do need to address most everything, and with the flood of technologies out of MS in the last year or two, that's a big platefull.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I know nothing about IronRuby since it's outside of my domain of interests or work right now. Acropolis and wpf are too infant to be of any concern at the moment however I do have a good wpf book and have studied up on the subjects quite thoroughly, enough to know it's not technology that's innovative enough to be useful quite yet as it's missing the most critically important thing to me which is writing a web browser and desktop app once, something they seem to be moving towards but not quite there yet. Linq I must admit is a complete mystery to me and something that I've looked at extremely lightly and don't quite *get* at all, but I'm sure it will all make sense when the time comes. To be fair this stuff is not coming all at once, I think I read about wcf a couple of years ago but either way it's not a *lot* of stuff and much of it you either need or you don't. I believe in learning deeply what you need when you need it and only skimming the rest to know if it's likely to be a useful tool or not. I still don't think it's a fraction of the amount of technology we had to deal with back in the mfc c++ days when you factor in all the huge amount of 3rd party libraries required to make even the most basic of my applications actually do something useful. When I think of all the installers and reporting suites and encryption libraries and writing my own web server and on and on and on I feel like .net has nicely wrapped everything up and made it much cleaner and simpler to deal with.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
p.s. of all the new technologies out there, the one I'm betting will be successful is LINQ. It makes your code clearer: instead of saying how to get the information (creating lists, doing for loops, getting data, generating objects from that data, then adding those objects to the list), you instead simply say what you want, and LINQ does the rest. It's really beautiful.
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Um..what thread were you thinking you replied to, or were you just writing gibberish in this thread? :wtf:
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
I was drawing a parallel. Crabby or lazy? Personally, i could care less about rounding methods in the library - in the past ten years, i've needed precise control over rounding exactly twice, and both times wrote my own routines just to be sure i would have that control. But obviously, it's a bigger deal for you, as you've brought it up at least twice in these threads. The parallel with browser support then is that you hope or had hoped for a consistent runtime, and found that various implementations were picking and choosing at what they'd actually bother to implement - hit the cool stuff, leave the mundane half-baked to trip up those trying to actually get stuff done.
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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SupportW, whatever it is, is nonexistant as far as I can tell. If the definitive tool for seeing if your application is supported, MOMA, doesn't indicate support (and it does check each p/invoke) then as far as I'm concerned it's just not supported. I have searched for this before but it's dropped off the radar so far that I can't find *any* info on it now. The thing is that it's easy enough to rewrite your own code to be compliant, but without the support of the really good 3rd party libraries that are out there I don't see how you can make anything commercially viable.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
John Cardinal wrote:
without the support of the really good 3rd party libraries that are out there I don't see how you can make anything commercially viable.
Great point. I just ran Moma on our big WinForms app and we have surprisingly few problems: a handful of P/Invokes for shell interop and a few things partially implemented or not implemented at all in Mono. This is all stuff we can get around with relative ease. However, if I include our 3rd party dlls in the mix -- SyncFusion, AtwoodExceptionHandling, Krypton Toolkit, Divelements, EasyMail.NET -- the Moma warnings shoot into the thousands. Ouch!
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Yes, and it's easier to do some things with this glorified VG plugin than it is with vanilla JS. [cue collective, "aahhhhhhh" sound]
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Of course it is. That's one of the points in using someone else's code. ;) Obviously, things are a little bit different in browser-land, since you can't bring along just any code, but at the end of the day you're still just choosing between what's already been written and what you think you can write.
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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What is this vanilla JS you keep mentioning? All JS is vanilla.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Meaning, nothing fancy, just plain old Javascript. (Say, as opposed to using Javascript with Silverlight.)
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