Women in IT [modified]
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That is a risky topic... (Bring on the Univoters...) But I know from my days at IBM, that quite the opposite to discrimination is the case... The company had a policy (as do many UK companies) to employ a certain percentage of women, no matter if there were better qualified men applying for the positions. I'm not saying men a better, just that there are more of them in the IT industry. And as such UK companies find it hard to meet their quota for employing more women... The only sexist thing I have to say is, we could do with more Eye Candy in the IT workplace!!! :-D
Alan Beasley wrote:
we could do with more Eye Candy in the IT workplace!!!
Got my 5! :)
We are using Linux daily to UP our productivity - so UP yours!
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My wife found that there is a small "good ole boys" attitude in some circles. They exclude her on stuff and it has angered her. Of course her answer to this revolves around making them so incapable of working without her that when she goes on leave they are pretty much doomed, so they are going to have to acknowledge her soon, or suffer for months. It's funny to watch the look on someone's face when he realizes he can't do several everyday tasks because she never taught him how. Let's see, 50% of our architects, 60% of our section leads, 20% of our programmers and 50% of our tech support and 50% of the temp people are female. They aren't really outnumbered by much here.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
I've experienced the same attitude your wife has at some places and to be honest I don't want to have to resort to tatics like that. This often happens in places where people think the world owes them success and that they don't really have to work for it.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
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Immediately after university, Jen got a job with a clothing manufacturer in their IT department. Despite being the most qualified person in the department and having a 2:1, she was quickly moved to running the help desk so that the work could be left to "the real men". It's lucky for her manager that I was working in a different country at the time; I'd have ripped his dick off and made him wear it as a tie for such misogynistic crap. Shortly after that, Jen left the company and came to work for me. She was a damn good coder (when we had the kids, she decided to leave the industry and is now a teacher and photographer).
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'd have ripped his dick off and made him wear it as a tie for such misogynistic crap.
:cool:
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
she was quickly moved to running the help desk so that the work could be left to "the real men".
Now as you know I'm not one to cause trouble but... isn't this a perfect example of how emotional men are? I.e. crying is seen as emotional but violence and agression isn't?
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
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Recently I've been reading alot about how women in IT are still being predjudiced against - lower salaries, experience bias from men, fewer in positions of power, the usual stories about how women can't seem to make it in a male-dominated industry. Given my own experience in IT, I'm inclined to think that most of this is rubbish as I've found gender to be mostly irrelevant. I've found that hard work, being good at your job and having the confidence to stand your ground carries far more weight than "being a skirt". Am I alone in this thinking?
modified on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 2:15 PM
When I worked for a big company, I once asked the boss why we had not one female programmer. He told me not one had ever applied. I've still never worked with a female programmer, but I know a few through CP. I was also in the MSDN forums at a time when one of the female moderators raved about sexism in IT. She was real nut job. There was one other prominent female in the group, and she studiously avoided the conversation. My overall feeling is that there can be sexism anywhere, but it's not necessarily endemic, not today. The flip side of the coin is that an incompetent woman can always call on sexism to explain her lack of success in the workforce.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Do you argue that they don't (relative to men) spend more time doing house work spend more time with their kids? Not sure how good this is (I don't see a citation), but... The gender gap in earnings has decreased substantially since 1980. From 1980 to 1994, the ratio increased from 0.6 to 0.74, although the ratio has stagnated since 1994. Thus, in the fourteen years from 1980 to 1994, 35 percent of the preexisting gender gap in pay was eliminated. Moreover, these annual earnings data overstate the size of the gender gap because women who work full time actually work about 10 percent fewer hours than do men.[^] probably more reliable... However, even among full-time workers (those usually working 35 hours or more per week), men worked longer than women--8.3 versus 7.7 hours. (See table 4.) [^]
Opacity, the new Transparency.
Thanks, I am at work and cannot prove anything. I am greatful that codeproject.com is allowed. All sites are blocked unless categorized by work site higher-ups.
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I'm guessing that you live life as an onanist having such progressive views. :rolleyes:
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Can you prove this fact? I've know many women that completely out work their male counterparts.
And above all things, never think that you're not good enough yourself. A man should never think that. My belief is that in life people will take you at your own reckoning. --Isaac Asimov Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'd have ripped his dick off and made him wear it as a tie for such misogynistic crap.
:cool:
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
she was quickly moved to running the help desk so that the work could be left to "the real men".
Now as you know I'm not one to cause trouble but... isn't this a perfect example of how emotional men are? I.e. crying is seen as emotional but violence and agression isn't?
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
I have no problem acknowledging my emotional side. When my children put on a performance at school or in their dance school, I am the dad with the wobbly lip. When Newcastle were relegated, I was properly emotional (in fact, I was as emotional as a newt) - when they were promoted again, I was emotional again.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Can you prove this fact? I've know many women that completely out work their male counterparts.
And above all things, never think that you're not good enough yourself. A man should never think that. My belief is that in life people will take you at your own reckoning. --Isaac Asimov Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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I have no problem acknowledging my emotional side. When my children put on a performance at school or in their dance school, I am the dad with the wobbly lip. When Newcastle were relegated, I was properly emotional (in fact, I was as emotional as a newt) - when they were promoted again, I was emotional again.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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My wife tends to 'take off' much more than i do, because of kids. So, judging from my statement right here, you might be on to something with your post ;P
Hence the phrase "All men are onanists or liars".
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Not as DD as a newt?
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
Indeed - as emotional as a tadpole.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Truth is, I was told this fact by a financial planner a few years back and then heard through the grapevine about the studies Richard posted above.
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Hence the phrase "All men are onanists or liars".
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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'Tis often the way.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Can't speak to the salary issue, as I've never been on the management side, but dunno about the rest... I haven't worked with many female techies... I can recall two programmers (One talented, one waste of oxygen), and I think two or three in QA (Not sure of their skill level). Back in college (University, for you non-USians), I don't remember seeing more than three or four women in all of my Computer Science classes combined... At least when I went to college (Right around 2000), very few women were going to school to learn how to program, and the few I knew really weren't very skilled. Obviously this isn't definitive proof of anything, as quite a lot of good developers are self-educated. Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think... Men and women tend to think about problems (And everything else) differently, so it would be good to get some new perspectives on things. While it's good to be on the "same wavelength" as your team members, it also usually means you're all attacking the problem from the same side, and possibly missing a much better solution.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think... Men and women tend to think about problems (And everything else) differently, so it would be good to get some new perspectives on things. While it's good to be on the "same wavelength" as your team members, it also usually means you're all attacking the problem from the same side, and possibly missing a much better solution.
Definitely agreed. This could also be applied to a lot of other areas, including the reverse in more female-dominated areas. Unfortunately, it seems (from my limited experience) that the minority gender often has a harder time influencing things because it goes against the dominant way of thinking.
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Can't speak to the salary issue, as I've never been on the management side, but dunno about the rest... I haven't worked with many female techies... I can recall two programmers (One talented, one waste of oxygen), and I think two or three in QA (Not sure of their skill level). Back in college (University, for you non-USians), I don't remember seeing more than three or four women in all of my Computer Science classes combined... At least when I went to college (Right around 2000), very few women were going to school to learn how to program, and the few I knew really weren't very skilled. Obviously this isn't definitive proof of anything, as quite a lot of good developers are self-educated. Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think... Men and women tend to think about problems (And everything else) differently, so it would be good to get some new perspectives on things. While it's good to be on the "same wavelength" as your team members, it also usually means you're all attacking the problem from the same side, and possibly missing a much better solution.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think
I think Chris has hired most of them.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Honestly, I wish we had more (talented) female developers, and not for the reasons you think... Men and women tend to think about problems (And everything else) differently, so it would be good to get some new perspectives on things. While it's good to be on the "same wavelength" as your team members, it also usually means you're all attacking the problem from the same side, and possibly missing a much better solution.
Definitely agreed. This could also be applied to a lot of other areas, including the reverse in more female-dominated areas. Unfortunately, it seems (from my limited experience) that the minority gender often has a harder time influencing things because it goes against the dominant way of thinking.
J. Dunlap wrote:
the minority gender often has a harder time influencing things
That's funny, I'm a guy,and I've never seen that. :rolleyes: There are more women than men in the US. YYMV[^]if dating, check here[^] :-D On the other hand, this says China and India are very male heavy, and getting more so[^], since they control 1/3 world population,they skew the over all statistics the other way.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Sadly there is a proportion of the of people who make themselves feel stronger by putting others down, it varies from industry to industry etc. I have seen it by race, gender, snobbery, inverse snobbery etc., even if you didn't go to the right Cambridge college and have the right tutor. Yes, that was the case at one place I went for an interview and I told the agency later I wasn't interested. There was another case where an agency rang up about a vacancy in Cambridge and made sure they told me that the people there "weren't the usual Cambridge type". :doh: By the way, the firm I mentioned where you were looked down on if you weren't one of the 'elite' closed. Mostly because they thought people should be greatful for whatever they did.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
You have hit that nail on the head. I remember reading somewhere that the fastest way to get ahead was to pull other people down. I know I am argumentative on here, but that is part of how I view soapbox, etc. The only thing to argue about at work is technical merit of an idea,and personal attacks shouldn't be anywhere in that.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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You have hit that nail on the head. I remember reading somewhere that the fastest way to get ahead was to pull other people down. I know I am argumentative on here, but that is part of how I view soapbox, etc. The only thing to argue about at work is technical merit of an idea,and personal attacks shouldn't be anywhere in that.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
Captain Fantastic Incident level 4 - there is a wannabe alpha male at work and I manage the video streamers we use for playing back DVB recordings. There was a problem with one of the streamers and he 'knew' that one of the modulator cards was faulty and I 'had to' get the machine out the server room, strip it down etc. etc. and he 'knew' he was right. I power cycled the streamer and everything was fine, the driver for one card had glitched. Second incident in four years running about 70-80 modulators. Guess who was a grumpykins for the rest of that day. :laugh:
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]