I hate something I know nothing about...
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That is what most JavaScript haters sound like to me... As an immature dev, I used to dis on COBOL. I worked with a COBOL developer on a VB app (yeah, go figure) who was left behind the times. He tried to explain "code 88s" (level 88 numbers) to me, and I was like "what the fudge". This dude was left behind and couldn't hang in the more modern world as all he knew was COBOL... this was about 20 years ago. Boy, did I feel superior... here I was all relevant and he's not. Clearly, COBOL must be a steaming pile of poo since it wasn't making sense. Twenty years later, I did something called growing up -- sorta.** After studying the financial markets for a long time too, I've gained a better appreciation for context and history and where we came from to build up to today. Should devs stay modern? Yes. But, my disdain for COBOL more so stemmed from knowing nothing about it and its history and time and place, etc. and this guy who did nothing but format code all day that someone else wrote. As in, my reasoning was dumb, and a dev who uses COBOL and stopped learning is not the fault of COBOL itself. The more you know, the more you realize you don't know, after all. If people want to know why I'm defensive of JavaScript? It's because 99.99% of the conversations I've had on CP about how JS sucks was by people who know little about it. I don't meet many JS experts here, but I do get the snickers, etc. I used to defend Macs on here twenty some-odd years ago for the same reasons. Despite their flaws like still using cooperative multitasking, just like 16-bit Windows did. But, don't you dare 'dis NTFS, despite the fact it was butchered in its early years... at least it fragmented less. Why, it's a bunch of Windows devs... of course they're gonna hate Macs (I don't love Macs at all now btw)... just because... yay tribalism. Like when is enough, enough? Will programmers ever grow up? Why do we take 5 seconds to judge something and move on? When .NET first came out, I refused to use it because I wasn't going to use something that used an intermediate language (yes I know it compiles)... yet I do most of my work in JavaScript these days. Talk about irony. And yes, there objectionably better technologies than others (sometimes crap does suck), but the rationale I usually see for deeming good or bad is tenuous at best (I'm being nice here). I could give more instances, Vulkan/WebGPU vs OpenGL/WebGL, etc. but y'all get the idea. Why can't we not have an opinion on something we know little about? **
I sometimes asked in job interviews, "What are your favorite and least favorite programming languages?" The followup question was "What is your favorite feature in your least favorite language, and your least favorite feature in your favorite language?" The purpose of these two questions was to see if the candidate actually thought about the tools they use, or were they just a fanboy. If a candidate went to a decent university CS program, they were exposed to some very different languages, so they would have a basis for this opinion. If they were self-taught, they might only know one programming language. I would take it easy on such a candidate if they admitted their limits, but not so much if they were a fanboy.
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I sometimes asked in job interviews, "What are your favorite and least favorite programming languages?" The followup question was "What is your favorite feature in your least favorite language, and your least favorite feature in your favorite language?" The purpose of these two questions was to see if the candidate actually thought about the tools they use, or were they just a fanboy. If a candidate went to a decent university CS program, they were exposed to some very different languages, so they would have a basis for this opinion. If they were self-taught, they might only know one programming language. I would take it easy on such a candidate if they admitted their limits, but not so much if they were a fanboy.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Yeah, and well... we know which tends to exist the most. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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I agree with and love your high-level point .. but on the specific example of JavaScript, you're wrong -- it's terrible. :]
Nope. You're welcome to your incorrect opinion though, but I instantly no longer view this conversation as senior level given that lackluster rationale that's clearly based on blah.
Jeremy Falcon
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I hate JavaScript and I know everything about it - I've been "programming" in it since it first emerged, and it's filth. Granted, the DOM is filth, too, so you sort of need filth to deal with it, but JavaScript is inconsistent between browsers, untyped, messy, unstructured and - well - it's Filth. So's COBOL.
You don't know the difference between a language, the DOM and browser, and browser issues. You're not an expert... no matter how much you pretend to be online.
Jeremy Falcon
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It isn't always because we don't know something about what we reject. Sometimes it is just a reasoned analysis after learning, to a degree, how to use something new. JavaScript (JS) intersecting with my own experience is a good example. I came from a background where, over the years, I had written programs in FORTAN, assembly, a proprietary Barber-Colman language for a specific industrial controller, COBOL, QuickBasic, Clipper/xBase, and Visual Basic. I knew C and C++ well enough to read and understand but did not write in it. When web development became more prevalent in the mid 90s and beyond, I looked at JS in the early 2000s (and again in the 2010s and today) since it was integral to websites (and superior to VBScript, its initial competitor). By the mid 90s, I was used to the benefits of object-oriented programming (OOP). As I started to learn JS and see code from its use in the real world, I looked at its productivity potential, its history, and how it is executed, I saw some drawbacks that I didn't care for. JS was not originally intended for the kind of interactive apps we see today. Neither was HTML and CSS. But over the years, necessity and technology improvements have resulted in kludges in JS to keep up. IMHO, the two hardest areas for JS is it running as script, and not compiled to the machine level, and a lack of OOP. When I convert older ASP.NET programs, heavy with JS, to WebAssembly using C# (though any supported OO language would yield the same analysis), I see the productivity gains, the performance gains, the flexibility, fewer (almost no) browser incompatibilities, and less code needed. For someone who has years of experience writing JS, they can be productive to a degree. Opening the frontend logic to OOP languages instead of JS opens the developer pool for organizations creating the websites to more of their programmers, lowering cost and shortening the development portion of the SDLC. JS is not bad, and it got us to a point where more was demanded of websites than JS could deliver and still be JS. Browser manufacturers adding the WebAssembly engine, based on meeting open source, standardized requirements, is where web app development is more economically delivered and maintained, performance is better, and OOP is integral. Just as the Single Page Application (SPA) was a revolution in bringing one of desktop apps' stateful advantages to web apps stateless limitations, WebAssembly is a revolution in web apps that is needed, however much it is resisted by the JS communit
Thanks for the reply. Just FYI, you can do OOP since ES6 and JS has always been functional in nature. It's a different paradigm. Comparing it to C++ or C# (back in the day) was the problem. People can't break their molds to see past their own biases. That's all. Nothing more; nothing less. As far as WASM... I'll save that for a different day. Me like it. It's gotta ways to go though. I gotta back to work and thar be peeps not really worth replying to on this thread (not yours, I liked your reply).
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I did something called growing up
Yet in our most recent discussion you didn't hesitate to assume I know nothing about JavaScript just because I disagree with you (and now you're assuming you know more than pretty much the entirety of CP). I've worked with JavaScript for over ten years (mostly front-end, mind you), I did some non-trivial work in it, and I can simply say it's a horrible language. I'm not saying it can't do stuff, I'm saying it has way too many WTFs and doing stuff is often hard or weird. The way it handles NaN (which you can easily get, for example by doing 1 - {}, yet 1 + {} yields a string), how "this" is handled is just pure madness, many WTFs with basic operators (like the + and - of a number and object, now try + and - on a string and number), missing basic functionality (although that's getting better), the lack of an integer type or a "safe" decimal type, the whole ecosystem which forces you to install 100s of dependencies of which some have a single line of code (padLeft, anyone?), and the list goes on. It wasn't to long ago where the only sure way to check if an object is an array was
Object.prototype.toString.call(obj) === "[object Array]"and for NaNobj !== objdespite theisNaNandisArrayfunctions! You seem to love JavaScript for some reason, the rest of the world hates it. But of course the rest of the world must be wrong. You claim people lack the maturity to not be overly emotional about crap, yet you seem overly emotional about JavaScript. Let's be mature about it and agree to disagree.Best, Sander Azure DevOps Succinctly (free eBook) Azure Serverless Succinctly (free eBook) Migrating Apps to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript
Sander Rossel wrote:
Yet in our most recent discussion you didn't hesitate to assume I know nothing about JavaScript
You don't. Bye.
Jeremy Falcon
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Isn't the bane of human existence the realization of how clueless we were 5 years ago and blocking out the realization that we are currently clueless compared to our 5 years in the future self? Of course if you are not, that means you won't learn anything substantial in the next 5 years.
Tru dat, man.
Jeremy Falcon
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Look, I don't like JavaScript and I believe it has been used and abused way beyond what it meant to be used for. Since I have worked with both JavaScript and VBScript extensively in my career, for me, I always preferred VBScript since it was a far easier scripting language to use and implement. And when compared to JavaScript, it was also a far superior language implementation. Today, JavaScript is a sheer mess of tools, frameworks, and the like. You see many complaints regarding which tool or framework is best as well as which would be the most reliable for the long term. In addition, the use of massive amounts of JavaScript in web applications make them more vulnerable to attack and less efficient. And there is very little real sense in using so much of this language. But JavaScript's use and expansion into development circles was primarily predicated on the fact that it was free and Open Source, which was all the rage years ago, while VBScript was limited to Windows functionality such as Internet Explorer. Had Microsoft done the intelligent thing and Open Sourced VBScript when it no longer wanted to support this language, allowing the community to expand its capabilities and the browsers it could target, JavaScript never would have become the thing it is today...
Steve Naidamast Sr. Software Engineer Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
Yeah dude, no. You're confusing a lot of different things here besides the language itself. Not gonna spend time on this... tootles.
Jeremy Falcon
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I do agree with what your saying but had to point out ... Bloodletting is not totally garbage. My family carries a gene for a deadly disease for which phlebotomy aka bloodletting is the prescribed treatment. (Hemochromatosis: a build up of too much iron in the blood and tissues causing serious major organ damage)
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss. Lazarus Long, "Time Enough For Love" by Robert A. Heinlein
Didn't know that. Touché :thumbsup:
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
These are all wise, but then you get online and someone's like.... eff eff eff eff you... you ask "why"? Then they're like because you use the wrong keyboard.
Do you mind to elaborate? I don't understand what you mean. Are you talking about me concrete or are you talking about people / situation in general? What do you mean with "the wrong keyboard"?
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
these are grown "men" who never went outside. It's ok to piss them off, they're not going anywhere in life. :laugh:
Teasing people from time to time is ok and can be funny, yeah :-D But IMO, it still should be kept within "ethical" limits and not lead to trolling or worse.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Nelek wrote:
Are you talking about me concrete or are you talking about people / situation in general?
Generalizing man. I think you're awesome. I would elaborate, but this thread is already devolving into the phlegm of the Internet, I'll call it. Let's just say, peeps be immature and they be online a lot apparently, because the real world don't want them. Not you dude. :laugh:
Nelek wrote:
Teasing people from time to time is ok and can be funny, yeah
It's like anything though man. Like if you and I teased each other, we know each other well enough by now to know it's a joke. I'm referring to the crap where you can tell people really need to grow up.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I did something called growing up
Yet in our most recent discussion you didn't hesitate to assume I know nothing about JavaScript just because I disagree with you (and now you're assuming you know more than pretty much the entirety of CP). I've worked with JavaScript for over ten years (mostly front-end, mind you), I did some non-trivial work in it, and I can simply say it's a horrible language. I'm not saying it can't do stuff, I'm saying it has way too many WTFs and doing stuff is often hard or weird. The way it handles NaN (which you can easily get, for example by doing 1 - {}, yet 1 + {} yields a string), how "this" is handled is just pure madness, many WTFs with basic operators (like the + and - of a number and object, now try + and - on a string and number), missing basic functionality (although that's getting better), the lack of an integer type or a "safe" decimal type, the whole ecosystem which forces you to install 100s of dependencies of which some have a single line of code (padLeft, anyone?), and the list goes on. It wasn't to long ago where the only sure way to check if an object is an array was
Object.prototype.toString.call(obj) === "[object Array]"and for NaNobj !== objdespite theisNaNandisArrayfunctions! You seem to love JavaScript for some reason, the rest of the world hates it. But of course the rest of the world must be wrong. You claim people lack the maturity to not be overly emotional about crap, yet you seem overly emotional about JavaScript. Let's be mature about it and agree to disagree.Best, Sander Azure DevOps Succinctly (free eBook) Azure Serverless Succinctly (free eBook) Migrating Apps to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript
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You don't know the difference between a language, the DOM and browser, and browser issues. You're not an expert... no matter how much you pretend to be online.
Jeremy Falcon
Yeah, you're probably right. After all, I've only been programming since 1978, and have only written nine compilers. Perhaps, on the other hand, you should actually read what I wrote, rather than reacting like an infant.
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Yeah, you're probably right. After all, I've only been programming since 1978, and have only written nine compilers. Perhaps, on the other hand, you should actually read what I wrote, rather than reacting like an infant.
You can insult me, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. It means your old and still haven't learned to communicate or speak in concepts. Tootles.
Jeremy Falcon
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You can insult me, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. It means your old and still haven't learned to communicate or speak in concepts. Tootles.
Jeremy Falcon
Attack what I said, then, instead of attacking me. By doing that, you lose automatically. Go on: tell me why I'm wrong. It's such fun when children get hold of the power tools.
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Attack what I said, then, instead of attacking me. By doing that, you lose automatically. Go on: tell me why I'm wrong. It's such fun when children get hold of the power tools.
You're not an expert, son. But, you are wasting my time. So, enjoy having the last word....
Jeremy Falcon
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You're not an expert, son. But, you are wasting my time. So, enjoy having the last word....
Jeremy Falcon
Whatever. "Add ignorant to deluded giving Dunning-Kruger", as they say in Cobol, which is a language in which people write shopping lists and convince themselves they're programmers. And you've still failed to do anything other than insult me, from which I learn that you're actually talking to a mirror and I'm just listening.
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Btw, I'm not wasting my time on your posts anymore when you've proven you don't even read mine before you do your hate thing. I expected more out of you.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
when you've proven you don't even read mine
I've read it, as I have read other posts of yours, and if there's one thing I can conclude it's that you're far from "grown up". See ya later, "mid".
Best, Sander Azure DevOps Succinctly (free eBook) Azure Serverless Succinctly (free eBook) Migrating Apps to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript
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I know this for a fact, because I have seen this Physics Prof, and sat through his sessions, where he used to make remarks on things he was having only hearsay kind of knowledge. (He is not alive anymore, so I will not name him).
Forgive me, but hearing something said by someone else doesn't make it a fact. The history of science is littered with mistakes by scientists who were adamant that they were right about something, when it later turned out they were completely wrong.
