Avant Browser - pros and cons
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Excellent points about the UI.
With repsect to your comments about writing error messages and the Reporter...I'm thinking this is a bit different. The Mozilla Foundation isn't really blaming the user...they're blaming the content providers for providing IE only content...which, IMO, is where the blame needs to go. I don't think the blame should go on Mozilla, Apple, Opera, the KHTML folks, or anybody else for not providing rendering engines that act exactly like IE's. Web Devs who ignorantly assume that their user base is only going to hit their site with IE are the ones to blame. And there are ways to minimize the amount of double-coding necessary to support all of those browsers.
And that's not all. I just discovered this cool concept called "object oriented design". I can't wait to convert my subroutines to class methods! :-D -Ravi Bhavnani on finally installing XP SP2...in December 2005
I hear what you say, but I think my point still stands. In writing an error message (e.g. for a desktop app, and yes, this case is slightly different), you (as the application) take the blame yourself. So, not:
You have specified an incorrect location to save the file.but:WhizzyApp was unable to save the file. The folder does not exist.and I don't see Firefox going that far. They aren't taking responsibility for the problem. In the example above, it's not the application's fault that the user has given a bad location for the file, but the program takes responsibility anyway. It's subtle wording like that that makes all the difference about how applications are percieved, especically by non-technical users. -
And that's not all. I just discovered this cool concept called "object oriented design". I can't wait to convert my subroutines to class methods! :-D -Ravi Bhavnani on finally installing XP SP2...in December 2005
Yes, and oddly enough, for some reason I'm now seeing the quick reply. I swear, it was not there the last time I ran FF. Maybe I just had to restart it a couple times. X| Thanks.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Bought a House! Judah Himango
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I don't use the reply page for posting. But yes, the QST button is broken. It looks like there was a regression between 1.0.x and 1.5 in which the selected text was cleared when you clicked a form element. There's a workaround that Shog and I have both sent to Chris...but he's been on vacation for a bit...so it might be a bit before he fixes it.
In the interim...you could always try out Greasemonkey and CPhog. :)
And that's not all. I just discovered this cool concept called "object oriented design". I can't wait to convert my subroutines to class methods! :-D -Ravi Bhavnani on finally installing XP SP2...in December 2005
David Stone wrote:
you could always try out Greasemonkey and CPhog.
Yeah, I had been using it until 1.5, then it seemed to stop working (even after GM 0.6.4). I think I might've had an old version of CPhog though, just upgraded and after a few restarts it does seem to work. I didn't realize Quote Selected Text is different under CPhog. That's great, it does appear to work (as I just quoted you above) :cool: Now, how do I add my sig to Quick Reply?
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Quartz... wrote:
What is the difference ?
Top of my list:
- Leak-free closures
- Combo boxes that can be styled and aren't perpetually at the top of the z-order
- Use XPath on HTML documents
- Web Developer toolbar and DOM Inspector
- Support for handy CSS selectors and pseudo elements
- Better PNG support
position: fixed;- E4X
----- I just want you to be happy, That's my only little wish...
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Quartz... wrote:
What is the difference ?
Top of my list:
- Leak-free closures
- Combo boxes that can be styled and aren't perpetually at the top of the z-order
- Use XPath on HTML documents
- Web Developer toolbar and DOM Inspector
- Support for handy CSS selectors and pseudo elements
- Better PNG support
position: fixed;- E4X
----- I just want you to be happy, That's my only little wish...
If FF has the support for all the latest advanced technologies, why is not compatible with a lot of simple websites out there ? and why does IE Scores there , though its not even near as good development environment as FF ? For a layman, A Web browser should display the web page properly first then only he can appreciate the advantages of tons of feature given by that browser. "Not everything that counts can be counted..." -Albert Einstein
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David Stone wrote:
you could always try out Greasemonkey and CPhog.
Yeah, I had been using it until 1.5, then it seemed to stop working (even after GM 0.6.4). I think I might've had an old version of CPhog though, just upgraded and after a few restarts it does seem to work. I didn't realize Quote Selected Text is different under CPhog. That's great, it does appear to work (as I just quoted you above) :cool: Now, how do I add my sig to Quick Reply?
Judah Himango wrote:
Now, how do I add my sig to Quick Reply?
Copy it from the box on your settings page and then paste it into the signature box on Quick Reply. :)
----- Calvin's my hero. It used to be Shog but then I saw where he made a programming mistake and admitted it publicly. I didn't know Shog made mistakes so now he's 2nd on "The All Time Hero List" and Calvin is back at #1. - code-frog, Calling Cookie Experts...
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Judah Himango wrote:
Now, how do I add my sig to Quick Reply?
Copy it from the box on your settings page and then paste it into the signature box on Quick Reply. :)
----- Calvin's my hero. It used to be Shog but then I saw where he made a programming mistake and admitted it publicly. I didn't know Shog made mistakes so now he's 2nd on "The All Time Hero List" and Calvin is back at #1. - code-frog, Calling Cookie Experts...
Ah, it doesn't save then?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Bought a House! Judah Himango
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Ah, it doesn't save then?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Bought a House! Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Ah, it doesn't save then?
It does. Or at least...it should. Does on mine...
And that's not all. I just discovered this cool concept called "object oriented design". I can't wait to convert my subroutines to class methods! :-D -Ravi Bhavnani on finally installing XP SP2...in December 2005
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If FF has the support for all the latest advanced technologies, why is not compatible with a lot of simple websites out there ? and why does IE Scores there , though its not even near as good development environment as FF ? For a layman, A Web browser should display the web page properly first then only he can appreciate the advantages of tons of feature given by that browser. "Not everything that counts can be counted..." -Albert Einstein
Quartz... wrote:
If FF has the support for all the latest advanced technologies, why is not compatible with a lot of simple websites out there ?
There are a number of contributing factors, but a big portion of it boils down to this: A good number of web pages out there have been designed by people with rather poor technical skills. When you have an error in (say) a C++ program, it might not compile, or it might crash. When you have a bug in a HTML page, it might display oddly. How oddly depends on the underlying design of the rendering engine, and on decisions made regarding how errors would be handled. Here's a very common example:
<div><font color="blue">The closing tags
<b><i> are out of order!</font></i>
And one of them is missing...<div>This is invalid HTML. Both IE and FF do their best to display *something*, and usually they get results that are pretty close... But in some instances, there are differences in the final output. Arguing over which is more "correct" is pointless. The more troublesome inconsistencies spring from practices that, at one time, *were* valid - for instance, pages written for IE 4.x or Netscape 4.x. Many of the features introduced in those browsers were later standardized on and made available by both... but a fair number of them weren't. So a browser-maker has to make a decision: support a feature that has no formal specification and/or is no longer common? Sometimes it's fairly easy - Netscape's LAYER tags were part of a DHTML implementation that was less powerful and more convoluted than the solution finally standardized on: drop it. MARQUEE tags were never standardized on either, but are used heavily in many East Asian sites, and can make them unusable if not supported - so keep support for them. Other times, it's tricky - one of the features of IE4 that is still heavily used to this day is the
document.allauto-array, which can be used to iterate through every element in a document, or choose a specific one by id. It was superseded in v5.0 browsers bydocument.getElementById()and friends, but still persists as a sort of shorthand in a lot of code. The problem is, if a fully IE-compatible implementation of it were put into Mozilla, it might break code written with cross-browser compatibility in mind! This is worse than breaking on IE-only sites, since it does nothing to encourage programmers to write better code, but adds yet ano -
It just doesn't feel right to me. What annoys:
- There's a number of UI inconsistencies (a particular bugbear of mine)
- It doesn't import cookies properly (it broke some "saved logon" sites)
- It doesn't hande CP's menus or quote selected text feature
What really annoys: This is a quote from the "Report a broken web site" feature
This tool allows you to tell the Evangelism Team about web sites that do not work properly in Firefox
The clear implication here is that if Firefox does not render a site properly, it's the fault of the web site. Seems arrogant to me. What I find funny: (from the install log)
Components corrupted (startup): noney‚|
Destination Path:
Main: C:\Program Files\Mozilla Firefox
SubPath:I got a real giggle from the fact that there's clearly some corruption in the file :doh:
Graham Bradshaw wrote:
The clear implication here is that if Firefox does not render a site properly, it's the fault of the web site. Seems arrogant to me.
Perhaps. But, fairly honest. Probably 7-8 times out of 10, if i find a website isn't working right in FF it's doing something dodgy or down-right stupid. The rest of the time, it's a bug in FF or a missing plug-in. Why is it a good idea to put a bit of the blame on site owners? Because for some sites, no matter how good FF gets at emulating IE's behavior, there are going to be problems unless the site owner is serious about wanting it to work cross-platform. Consider the recent open beta of Windows Live, and the soon-to-be beta of Windows Live Mail: The former took a good deal of flack for launching without proper FF support, and quickly updated to correct it. The latter is planned to support FF by the time it goes public. Maybe i'm just an arrogant, demanding user, but having a site come up working for me is *always* more important than getting a diplomatically-worded blurb in some "report broken page" dialog... ;)
----- Calvin's my hero. It used to be Shog but then I saw where he made a programming mistake and admitted it publicly. I didn't know Shog made mistakes so now he's 2nd on "The All Time Hero List" and Calvin is back at #1. - code-frog, Calling Cookie Experts...
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Ah, it doesn't save then?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Bought a House! Judah Himango
There was a bit of a bug with that. It *should* have saved when you posted a reply using it, but i've updated the code to save even more often just in case. Reload CP to refresh the code, and let me know if you run into any more problems.
----- Calvin's my hero. It used to be Shog but then I saw where he made a programming mistake and admitted it publicly. I didn't know Shog made mistakes so now he's 2nd on "The All Time Hero List" and Calvin is back at #1. - code-frog, Calling Cookie Experts...
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I know FireFox users hate IE (not the IE users i presume :) ) I tried avant browser after a message by Marc here[^]and i am finding it with loads of extended features which IE users always wanted to have at a single place. I would say its Definitely not for FF users because its too sophisticated and a bit complicated interface,due to enhanced feature list, but for IE users this adds an immense features all IE users always wanted. 1st the "The Con's " 1. Seems to be too cluttered (Firefox or IE Interface is much simpler) 2. Somebody said it crashes (but not till now i have used it for three days) 3. It is 100% based on Internet Explorer, it actually extends the IE using inbuilt BHO. 4. There are two tabs which are really horrible a> Yahoo search tab (may be somebody find it useful but you can hide it) b> Similar website (This one actually is a bit cluttery one you might see you can hide this one too ) might show a set of squares as if loading something 5. I am not sure about this one but i am unable to use the Answers.com toolbar in Avant. ( may be i have to reinstall it) 6..Add your cons here...... The Pro's 1. Tabbed browsing 2. Based on IE - Works on all the websites where IE works 3. In built Google search tab 4. you don't have to import/export anything everything in IE is automatically there 5. One cick- you can hide/ close all the browsers to the system tray 6. One click all features of tabbed browsing, 7. And yes it is faster than IE 8. capable to Block "In the page " Flash or even image Ads in the page 9. Zoom in zoom out any image in the page 10. mouseover text in the page and a floating option of search etc. 11. Feeds Menu like favorite menu 12. And Ofcourse the Cool Skins.... 13..Add your pros here....... For all the IE users its bliss. Friends, Romans and all the fellow FF users please don't shoot me for using extended IE like browser, we can live side by side :) "Not everything that counts can be counted..." -Albert Einstein -- modified at 18:01 Monday 5th December, 2005
I used to use Avant before I switched to Firefox - and if Firefox were to somehow (God forbid!) suddenly disappear, I would definitely go back to using it. It was a ray of hope in the stagnant browser world before Firefox made its debut. But Firefox with a few plugins has all of its features, plus there are a host of other plugins, and I can write my own easily if I want new features. And the underlying engine has a lot of extra features that can't be retrofitted into IE. The only major thing I dislike about Firefox now is the memory usage, which is still too high. (Its resource use is low though, and that's what really counts because resources can't be increased, but memory can.)
Quartz... wrote:
1. Seems to be too cluttered (Firefox or IE Interface is much simpler)
Yes - IE has fewer features, and Firefox has the same features but presents them in a less cluttered way.
Quartz... wrote:
2. Based on IE - Works on all the websites where IE works
"Based on IE" is both a pro and a con to me - it's a pro only when I need to access a site that is coded for IE only.
Quartz... wrote:
4. you don't have to import/export anything everything in IE is automatically there
Part of (2), but note that import from IE to Firefox is painless.
Quartz... wrote:
5. One cick- you can hide/ close all the browsers to the system tray
Not something I'm interested in, but there is a plugin that does it.
Quartz... wrote:
6. One click all features of tabbed browsing
Which contributes to the clutter.
Quartz... wrote:
10. mouseover text in the page and a floating option of search etc.
Not sure what you're referring to...
Quartz... wrote:
3. In built Google search tab
Quartz... wrote:
5. One cick- you can hide/ close all the browsers to the system tray
Quartz... wrote:
8. capable to Block "In the page " Flash or even image Ads in the page
Quartz... wrote:
11. Feeds Menu like favorite menu
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I know FireFox users hate IE (not the IE users i presume :) ) I tried avant browser after a message by Marc here[^]and i am finding it with loads of extended features which IE users always wanted to have at a single place. I would say its Definitely not for FF users because its too sophisticated and a bit complicated interface,due to enhanced feature list, but for IE users this adds an immense features all IE users always wanted. 1st the "The Con's " 1. Seems to be too cluttered (Firefox or IE Interface is much simpler) 2. Somebody said it crashes (but not till now i have used it for three days) 3. It is 100% based on Internet Explorer, it actually extends the IE using inbuilt BHO. 4. There are two tabs which are really horrible a> Yahoo search tab (may be somebody find it useful but you can hide it) b> Similar website (This one actually is a bit cluttery one you might see you can hide this one too ) might show a set of squares as if loading something 5. I am not sure about this one but i am unable to use the Answers.com toolbar in Avant. ( may be i have to reinstall it) 6..Add your cons here...... The Pro's 1. Tabbed browsing 2. Based on IE - Works on all the websites where IE works 3. In built Google search tab 4. you don't have to import/export anything everything in IE is automatically there 5. One cick- you can hide/ close all the browsers to the system tray 6. One click all features of tabbed browsing, 7. And yes it is faster than IE 8. capable to Block "In the page " Flash or even image Ads in the page 9. Zoom in zoom out any image in the page 10. mouseover text in the page and a floating option of search etc. 11. Feeds Menu like favorite menu 12. And Ofcourse the Cool Skins.... 13..Add your pros here....... For all the IE users its bliss. Friends, Romans and all the fellow FF users please don't shoot me for using extended IE like browser, we can live side by side :) "Not everything that counts can be counted..." -Albert Einstein -- modified at 18:01 Monday 5th December, 2005
I moved from IE -> Avant Browser -> Firefox No more IE for me. If any website is not working in Firefox and I make it load that website in IE via IE tab[^] extension. The more people use Firefox it sends message to all the website administrators to support the better browser with better standards. -- modified at 22:03 Monday 5th December, 2005
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There was a bit of a bug with that. It *should* have saved when you posted a reply using it, but i've updated the code to save even more often just in case. Reload CP to refresh the code, and let me know if you run into any more problems.
----- Calvin's my hero. It used to be Shog but then I saw where he made a programming mistake and admitted it publicly. I didn't know Shog made mistakes so now he's 2nd on "The All Time Hero List" and Calvin is back at #1. - code-frog, Calling Cookie Experts...
Shog9 wrote:
but i've updated the code to save even more often just in case
:suss:
And that's not all. I just discovered this cool concept called "object oriented design". I can't wait to convert my subroutines to class methods! :-D -Ravi Bhavnani on finally installing XP SP2...in December 2005
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Quartz... wrote:
its Definitely not for FF users because its too sophisticated and a bit complicated also due to enhanced feature list
:laugh::laugh: That is rich. That's possibly the most hilarious thing I've heard in quite a while...
Quartz... wrote:
The Pro's
That list sounds exactly like everything Firefox does... :~
Do you have a specific reason for not using Firefox? Do you just dislike the Gecko engine? Are you not a big fan of standards? Maybe you just dislike Open Source Software?
And that's not all. I just discovered this cool concept called "object oriented design". I can't wait to convert my subroutines to class methods! :-D -Ravi Bhavnani on finally installing XP SP2...in December 2005
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Oh, I'm not against you. :)
I was just wondering what your problem was with Firefox. Maybe I came across a bit harsh, not my intention. Sorry about that. :)
Quartz... wrote:
Geico engine i have never heard about that
The Gecko rendering engine is the rendering engine that Firefox uses. It's what parses out the HTML and decides how to display it. It's more standards compliant with things like CSS2, SVG, MathML, etc. And it doesn't have near the problems with form elements over divs that IE does (something that has plagued web devs for years with IE).
Quartz... wrote:
i heard a lot of time you need plugins to see CP in FF or some new version of FF for grease monkey extension ???? why
Eh...that's not really true. I'm viewing CP from Firefox. I don't need to have any plugins, it displays just fine. There's this thing called GreaseMonkey[^] which is an extension that lets you inject JavaScript into the local version of a webpage. It's pretty cool. It lets you do all sorts of fun stuff that the website might not offer. For instance, here on CodeProject, Shog9's CPhog script gives you the ability to reply to a post without having to load up the reply page. I'm using it right now. You just click a Quick Reply link and down pops this little reply form under the post that you're replying to. That way, you never have to leave the forum page. :)
You should try it out. First get Firefox[^]. Then install GreaseMonkey[^]. Then visit Shog's CPhog[^] page and install the user script. When you come back here to CodeProject, you'll see this little Bob in a cap and jacket down in the right hand side of the page. Open up a forum post and right next to the reply link there'll be a quick reply link. Click that. Enter a reply and hit post. It's very :cool:.
David Stone wrote:
There's this thing called GreaseMonkey[^] which is an extension that lets you inject JavaScript into the local version of a webpage.
There's one for internet explorer as well http://www.bhelpuri.net/Trixie/Trixie.htm[^] There are many other alternatives firefox alternative using gecko engine Kmeleon[^] Other IE multitabbed alternatives Slimbrowser[^] Maxthon[^] and many others IE alternatives but no need to list them all you can search for it.
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Yeah, I've got Firefox, Netscape and Opera installed. I use them all for testing. I think I just like the fact that a lot of stuff I use works correctly in I.E. but not Firefox. I think Firefox is a good way to go I just don't think it's mainstream. I cannot recommend it to my clients. I get to many complaints about sites not working. Firefox is only a tool for savvy users which in my book means it will never be a real threat. I know you say that it adheres to standards and all that is fine the trouble is I.E. has it's own standard and 90% of the world uses that standard so it makes me wonder what's better. Confusing the hell out of my users by going standards compliant or giving my users something that works 100% of the time. For me it's a no-brainer and a cost savings to recommend I.E. over FF. Admittedly if you are a web developer FF is a great web development tool. There's just now way around that at all. - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
Do you think Microsoft would have started developing IE7 if Firefox is not considered a threat? Internet and web development is a threat to Microsoft's own line of products, and they'd rather it die in order to create their own proprietary 'Internet'. According to some statistics (yeah, I know they are not 100% reliable) Firefox is growing and has now achieved 10% of the market share. 90% (actually now it is less than that) of the world uses IE because they don't know any better. They just use whatever is available and most of them are too scared to install anything on their PCs without the geek relative's help. And just because 90% of the world uses it does not mean that it is a standard (see below for definition of standard). If 90% of the world lives in poverty should it be called standard way of life? And perhaps standards change. Our standard of life has improved compared to the 15th century. What was the standard back then is not the standard now. Sure, majority of people in the world still couldn't afford to eat meals 3 times a day or take a shower every day, but that's because they live below the standard. IE might have been the standard compared to NS4 but now it isn't. stan·dard: 1. Something, such as a practice or a product, that is widely recognized or employed, especially because of its excellence. 2. a. A degree or level of requirement, excellence, or attainment. b. A requirement of moral conduct. Often used in the plural. Edbert P. Sydney, Australia
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Do you think Microsoft would have started developing IE7 if Firefox is not considered a threat? Internet and web development is a threat to Microsoft's own line of products, and they'd rather it die in order to create their own proprietary 'Internet'. According to some statistics (yeah, I know they are not 100% reliable) Firefox is growing and has now achieved 10% of the market share. 90% (actually now it is less than that) of the world uses IE because they don't know any better. They just use whatever is available and most of them are too scared to install anything on their PCs without the geek relative's help. And just because 90% of the world uses it does not mean that it is a standard (see below for definition of standard). If 90% of the world lives in poverty should it be called standard way of life? And perhaps standards change. Our standard of life has improved compared to the 15th century. What was the standard back then is not the standard now. Sure, majority of people in the world still couldn't afford to eat meals 3 times a day or take a shower every day, but that's because they live below the standard. IE might have been the standard compared to NS4 but now it isn't. stan·dard: 1. Something, such as a practice or a product, that is widely recognized or employed, especially because of its excellence. 2. a. A degree or level of requirement, excellence, or attainment. b. A requirement of moral conduct. Often used in the plural. Edbert P. Sydney, Australia
Look, that's fine. You win. My users, yeah you know those people who don't do this for a living.. Doctors, lawyers, CPA's... People who just want something to work. Don't care about your standards definition. They want something that works.
Edbert P. wrote:
90% (actually now it is less than that) of the world uses IE because they don't know any better.
Nice try. You're wrong. It's because their on-line banking sites don't work in firefox. It's because their on-line medical resource sites don't work in firefox. It's because their on-line training sites don't work in firefox.
Edbert P. wrote:
If 90% of the world lives in poverty should it be called standard way of life?
You are being foolish and way out of context. Poverty is not comfortable it's nothing anybody would choose. A lot of users use I.E. because it works and *is* comfortable. Keep it in context here if you expect any credibility...
Edbert P. wrote:
Our standard of life has improved compared to the 15th century. What was the standard back then is not the standard now. Sure, majority of people in the world still couldn't afford to eat meals 3 times a day or take a shower every day, but that's because they live below the standard.
Again your use of context is terribly weak here. We are talking about web browsers. If you want to save the world or opine about social history you have my blessing. Firefox and I.E. don't fit either of those contexts. It's just a browser. This is exactly why people get sick of hearing about firefox all the time. Someone has to pick up a dead horse, burn their bra and ride of to save ... um nobody ... wow. Nobody needs to be rescued from or by a web browser. People use what works for them. Learn to understand and respect that. It's not your standard it's their's and they want something that is comfortable for them. Once upon a time I recommended all my supported offices and networks use firefox. I got *so* many reports of important websites, yes work-related websites not working that I gave up. You can preach all you want. The people who use IE the most are not web developers or software developers. They outnumber us 100,000 to 1. They don't care about your phonix definition of standard. They want www.usbank.com to work though so they can transfer funds and run statements. Go save the world somewhere else.
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code-frog wrote: The one thing Avant has the way kicks but over any other tabbed browser is SAVE ALL OPENED PAGES & EXIT If you want that feature in FireFox: you can install this. It adds that feature and more. The developer of the extensions mentions that it is unstable, but I haven't had any problems and I'll routinely have over 50 tabs open without issue. http://piro.sakura.ne.jp/xul/tabextensions/index.html.en[^]
andy brummer wrote:
If you want that feature in FireFox: you can install this.
Yes, and plenty of others. The trouble is that Avant already has it. And aliases. And all the other choices I want for browsing (not development!). And it uses all the IE settings automatically, which can be a bliss in the office. All in one package, mostly working OK, without me having to search right and left for various plugins. OGR