I like it. Another opportunity to bill the client.

Its because there were too many complaints about the "Microsoft Minute" , you know that message that says "1 minute left...", you come back after making a cup of coffee and its jumped to "3 minutes left..." . Only Micosoft can make time go backwards.

Agreed. I tell that to my users all the time. Thats what users are for.

Thanks for your replies. You have almost persuaded me. one last question: Cost. I presume there are the following costs involved in doing TDD: 1) the cost of the tool for the xUnit tests as you call it 2) the time cost of configuring the tool and setting up the objects and data for the tests, and changing the tests every time the system changes 3) the time costs of running the tests. It looks as if all of this would double the cost of any development, would you agree? If so, in a corporation that cost can be justified, but as an independent developer you run the risk of pricing your system out of the market, especially in an industry open to super-cheap offers from millions of "developers". In your opinions, who actually is willing to bear the cost of this type of project?

Your reply makes sense, I find that most of our code "fails" because it encounters some data that is incorrectly configured and it then behaves in a way that the user is not expecting. The data was incorrectly configured by the user. To test multiple scenarios of configurations you would need to have multiple databases, alternatively, write a test script that prepares data then tests against that data. It all seems like an inordinate amount of work, do people really do this? I suppose thats why for the past 20 years we have let our users do the testing!

excuse my ignorance but do you apply TDD to data as well? do lets say I have a depreciation class that does financial depreciation by loading up some data and calling a stored procedure. How would you use TDD in this scenario ? Do you have to set up your data before every test and then check that the correct depreciation entries were made in the database? We have heard that TDD is not really useful in UI, I guess what I'm asking is how well does TDD work with checking: a) the source of the data b) the processing of the data c) the resulting data. So many of our apps nowdays are heavily dependant on databases does TDD suit this scenario?

try www.SigmaProDraconis.com they say they can do it for about $150 but i couldnt set it up.

Take a free product that looks like it works well but sucks when you get deeper in to it, then write something that does that part of it really well and sell your thing to the public. When your thing is really well accepted, sell it to the people who wrote the free stuff, or if they have gone out of business, re-write the free stuff and start selling that too. For example: write joomla and dont net nuke components. Get them addicted and then dependant.

I bet its a blank sa password.

you've got me on that one, all is revealed!

From what I have observed, even the "Super Experts" are just muddling their way through things -they just have the authourity and self confidence to get away with it. After a while working with them, it becomes evident that there are big holes in their knowlege of their supposed fields, its just their charisma that keeps the team together.

dont forget the fanny-pack

The older wiser ones have moved away from doing the grunt work and moved onto managing the younger foolish ones.

There are lots of people (I personally know a few) who do on a daily basis what he did for the camera: wrestling crocs and dodging snakes, but none that have quite the charisma that he did. That kind of "Eddie Murphy cross Bill Cosby" look that came across his face when explaining something totally deadly, was probably what got him on international TV, and kept us entertained for years. If he had survived the sting ray I wonder how he would have explained it to us: "wham, like a powerfull lightning bolt to the chest...."

we are hosting .Net- SQL on a server for $8 per month (www.webhost4life.com), we understand everything on there and can manage our databases using Enterprise Manager, We are also hosting a php/mysql joomla website for about $6 per month - but the addtional effort and time spent on the joomla website has probalbly cost us about $400 per month in wasted time. Go with what you know, even if it costs more- you will save money in the long run. PS: Microsoft had a product like PHP/ MSQL a while ago - it was called ASP v1.0 and MS Access.:rolleyes:

I wonder if Chinese manufacturers recognise worldwide patents? How difficult would it be to litigate a huge foreign industry over a slightly ambiguous patent infringement? Its possibly better to get to market fast, and make your money early rather than try for the long term gain. Unfortunately, it is inevitable that someone WILL copy it sometime, even with a patent protecting it. It boils down to a choice of where the battle will be fought: in the law courts or in the marketplace.

The problem is worse than you think, people in those countries can't even go back to making a living doing their traditional work, for example, in Swaziland farmers are going out of business because of food dumping from the U.S., commercial farmers cannot sell their grain and subsistence farmers don't plant anything anymore because of "aid" from the US - which is just the US dumping maize that is a surplus because they subsidise their farmers to make them more competitive. What happens when the "aid" stops or the sweatshop closes? The workers are dis-empowered.