That's simply due machines getting faster, and it is cool. Add a common 150MB penalty of WPF and Silverlight bloat, you get pointless flashiness and nothing more. You can see how low and stable memory use is for Chrome. And this doesn't depend on a single proprietary language with new dynamic nonsense, or LINQ, MIL, or runtime being available on your device or machine. Apart from that failing on IE7, no wonder that Chrome and Firefox are on the rise, and more is about to be done right. Google has worked very hard to get the CPU use for JS down because it is still very high. And once the verifiable code and HTML5 is in place the silly race (as most things) between XYZ and MS is over. The only gripe is that JS could have been strongly typed rather than weakly, but it simply works and delivers on portability.

They target multiple IDEs, environments, OS-es, test and build systems, not just VS or Windows or the utter MSBuild, VSS, web-services evolution and idiotism :) Btw, Rama nails it again.. just wish to add NetBeans, CMake, Code blocks, the lot really.. MonoDevelop and SharpDevelop are only to be applauded and hope they all keep it up. However, it all comes back to 'visual reinvention' of a basic skill, simple, portable and extensible command line tools. And don't worry about VS2010 reaching the level of hunger Eclipse requires to run. It's a WPF test case, an exercise in self-adoption at Redmond and that means only one thing: Awesome Display of Hanging Performance. Designed by the same younger generation copying Java, playing fair and taking it all further into the oblivion (along with the flock of fanboy sheep losing their folicles by the hour, all while the life passes by and software or build breaks the moment you deal with anything other but open KBxxxxxxx database and around a dozen 500MB Service Packs. Debugging is great in VS, but don't they say it's something to be avoided? Ah remembered now, Windows is still being debugged and patched daily, that's why.. wonder if it will ever stop.. Windows 15 and VS 2100 for the immortals? Regards, Mac FanBoiii

Oh dear Pete.. how your tone keeps changing. But that's how you kicked off initially, got corrected but fanboI attitude persists. All the best making all the money.. And raving in the Lounge on 15 years of not mastering an iterator, range or currying concept :) My point is clear: never underestimate what you are doing with each Windows installation.

Over the last year I followed those and I'd bet/believe something great developed in John's work and criticism.. Intelligent rather than usual sheep-mentality you see around here on anything MS shoves down the devs neuron fields, those without any firing activity whatsoever.. Criticism is the only way forward and for some people and Redmond companies to accept that seems like a: <insert Toyota advert here > Windows, VS, Blend, are bloated, heavy and broken products and ideas for a long while now and getting excited about new releases is as encouraging as Java-runs-everywhere promise of '96-to-date.. No wonder that once people try Apple products they never go back, especially in anything media based.. then again, that is another another/extreme example of fanboi problem. What is lacking is alternatives and critical thinking is the only way you'll ever see anything serious done ( but MSDN.*.com should be filtered by the firewall at all times).

Yeah, change it to Pete O'MS-fanboi... But you should be aware by now that the company succesfully demonstrates complete destruction of human intelligence as evident by the Lounge 'rocks' and 'sucks' and naturally defence-style 'Ballmer gave me Rice Krispies this AM'.. As for other security comment by John C, oh man, it's been around for 40 years and MS just copied it in Vista recently.. again, first it destroyed intelligence and than made it look like an invention and education Lounge can proudly talk about :) And btw, what you both are doing right now TM (+ 10 other fanbois) is nothing but praising C-code, unmanaged, 'ape', dark-age, developers that you both (+ x other fanbois) kept on pounding for being stupid and backward.. Hmm, intelligence gets wounded again. Now, if I may, I'd suggest you download 340% faster than IE, Google Chrome source straight after you install 7 and SVN client and look at how 8 and 9 will morph into decimation of managed software world :-)

> Def a must see. If you liked that, then you must see Silverlight 2 demos from vendors touting "great performance". The thing (ie. 'technology'), eats more than VS2010, VS2008 + Resharper; around 287MB for some darn ugly single grid or single chart. California gone crazy, yet again.. I'm switching out of this crap, pronto; and hopefully before it terminates itself in bloatology ignorance.

What a pile.. Cross-platform means cross-environment-better-than-SOAP, cross-compiler-better-than-declspec, cross-build other than MSBuild, cross-OS-other-than-NTFS, cross-MS-specific-extension, cross-MS-Windows-latest-version lock-in and cross blogs.msdn.com mentality. Oh yes, cross-Vista boot loader too.. Open source, under control, and free too. And without forceful IE8 install. Or just plain fixing .NET 2.0 issues rather than just ignoring it all and pushing another 'better' and embarassingly slow tech. That takes time to understand, but what fails every single time is : Blind adherence that MS is shaping this industry and the amount of knoobs swearing by it (aka how SOAP takes over the world, how Live.com is the top service out there, how C++ dies, how .NET is the the only thing on the planet, how latest Windows or Office or VS is all you need, and how 500MB frameworks are the way forward.). In their dreams, and besides, if only one company ever had the entire or 99% of the market, WTF would be the point? That they get all the profits? Okay, cool, all the sheep to them.. but please, what does a Windows machine do or MSFT tech does that no other box or massively-copied-cat tech on the planet cannot or do better? One, single, good, example, would, do.

We're on the same page.. it just takes time to realise where its all going :) I still have vivid memories of VC on 200MHz Pentium pros.. 105% it is, was and always be snappier than a 50x times more powerful box (including half a teraflop of GPU or not) than VS2008. Not that these stats matter per se, but they tell a HUGE fact on what is going on in managed software and how to leverage the differential (and we will be forced to sooner rather than later). And Google is not wasting any time and leveraging open-source and open-tech to its best and in a very smart way. OpenGL and JavaScript engine with their service are here to stay, beat and wipe the floor of Live, Azures, Oslos, and other architectural-inventions-of-Java-style. No wonder they are crapping themselves and giving software/Sparks, dynamic typing, MVCs and other things a priority. Here is a usual lambda: MS => LOCK-IN-TILL-IT-HURTS-AND-THEN-SOME.

LOL, that made my day.. so true. Throw in a virus scanner, 5 WPF apps running concurrently, 8 IE's with Silverlight eating around half the RAM (few hanging at 30% utilisation), 19592 services in the background, and you are about to see a proper OS reboot or *recover-in-memory* around 80 times by the time one can meaningfully react to a shiny ListBox or a button. Redmond at its best, Architects of future-DLR-bloat.com..

Perhaps I've phrased it wrong, but 'bloody' implies that intepreted is about to reach the performance of someting that is around 100,000 times larger, and supposedly 'cutting-edge'. Can someone say that is called good-scaling for CLR or anything Java? Man, I can recognise the managed app from the opposite corner of the floor by the nature the user is clicking on it (not to mention delays, hard-disk activity, jitting, erraticism/jitter, GC calling in when least required, GPU not utilised and: laughable RAM pressure effect it has on other components of the system ). The reason JavaScript is about to pave the floor is simple: instruction are free, cache is not. And CLR is one of the worst on instructions as well as cache memory out of anything made in the last, what, 40 years? JS's GC aside, something doesn't telly as all decent-size managed apps out there behave the same when given a medium load. ( Here come the brave souls defending their investements in blogs.msdn.com .. Here's a Haiku in response: LOB, LOB, productivity, my UI knob is uglier and feels no pitty :-)

modified on Saturday, May 23, 2009 12:59 PM

Some of the SP3 2005 installs will actually report wrong machine type after it completes (DOH!), especially x64 and itanium configs. Thus be careful, I had to resort to a complete reinstall but at least SQL Server installers are pretty well designed for complexity they handle, and never wipe out anything of serious value. Must have been some shipping or platform detect problem.. If only Vista installer and hardware checking was as 10% good as SQL Server's, perhaps all the bloat written in .NET might have been worth a huge penalty on *Server* systems.. Hang on, naah, it is as valuable as WordPerfect in DOS today. Again, it is incredible that in this day and age you can see that UI rendering as you launch the app. Bravo managed-guys.. more of that "innovation", please.

Take it this way, no Xeon 5570 in this world will help any time soon either.. Ever since those PropertyGrids, dialogs and more moved to the JIT and .NET, you can visually see it taking time for everything to open up, render, close down, whatever; even on Cray. That is VS2003 to VS2008 and it is funny how it proves the Californian Law that the faster the hardware gets the slower the software becomes. Brilliant piece of engineering in carbon emissions. Advice from Redmond bloating central is to run it seperately, not to mix with existing VS2008 yet or run in VM. But you can risk it.. Put simply, you will now have a VS2008 XAML designer experience everywhere you go, future is bright, verbose, bloated, full of latency, cache pollution and buggy. Vista philosophy all over again. They will beat Eclipse in sluggish behaviour this time around. They just can't resist making things that scale like a common motorway *block*.. And before you know it, Google will have a JavaScript infrastructure that will be as usable in an interpreted bloody language, that's just silly.. Same can be said for SharpDevelop, LINQPad and more, they are dreadful hogs. Nice ideas but crap runtime behaviour.. tells something.

Write it in C# and then use SharpDevelop for auto VB.NET conversion. Heck just use it and you'll both benefit. Same GC-ed crap, different color..

>WPF still sucks. Blimey. You lot really are a bunch of old women! If it sucks so badly, why don't >you form a project and invent something better? Surely there's enough talent here to do that? Well if you need WPF candy there is a vendor (only 4 of them out there worth mentioning), that does all the 'sweet ice-cream functionality' fluff for WinForms.. It even supports CSS-like styling. As for data-binding, well, I bet reinventing it time and time again is as easy as existing XAML markup extension and INotifyPropertyChanged implementation (all tools do it for you these days) that sucks so bad. Last fact: Only old women use LOB in their language. Welcome back and may you buy an island.

Here's a wild guess: When you type "My", or "My this, my that", you will get a response none other than: "Stephen Wolfram". :)

Answer: None whatsoever. But mind you, we went and ported the entire show from WinForms. Not only was the result: a) slower b) more bloated c) less consistent d) sucked on fonts e) required designers and devs to talk (yikes!) f) crashed VS more than 5 times a minute at times g) wasteful exercise (apart from shining-up your CV) It simply looked like a joke at runtime overhead, appearance and all for few styling gimmicks (which you can all do in any tech with reflectino too damn easy to think). But WPF might be good for a toy demo here and there but complete apps you have to pursuade people with something like : 1) Browser (and one that people use in favour of another) 2) MS Office that doesn't suck as bad as OpenOffice 3) Android or Wii or PS3 app 4) Linux port (you know that thing that is free with all the things without licences and lock-ins) 5) 3D CAD like OpenGL does around 50 times faster than anything 3D WPF. Again, WPF, all yours.. see you at next MS upgrade stop (c1997, c1999, c2001, c2003, c2005 and c2007 so far.. Perhaps c4914, Windows will be writen in similar Redmond-RAM and-non-hardware-accelerated revolution and have around 1/985th of Google's customers but that might be a hard to see for people stuck on blogs.msdn.com and channel9-McCloud. One could argue that's why MS pays 1,000,000,000 dollars for 1% of cryptic PHP code and user-base these days..

I like the 100MB overhead feature the most for a few buttons and few lines, and some of the most bizzare painting performance on desktop supercomputers to date. Certainly the most bloated technology out there. No matter what, data binding is just performing so bad that anything updating frequently, well you can kiss your dual Quad-core goodbye as just 1-single-uno app will be eating most of it. It has been like that since first iteration all the way to 3.5SP1. If VS2010 is anything to judge by you can expect MSFT forcing you for yet another upgrade on Intel's account balance for a moderately complex project choking in UI and IntelliSense (and it is less-effective by minute because the two work together and call it 'a feature' of modern-day-bloatware-all-upgrade-programming ). And those flashy, incosistent, hungry and Eclipse-like-time-dragging WPF UIs are simply candy crowds get high on for a period it takes to have a summer ice-cream, and sugar wears-off to depression (especially as you start composing controls in XAML and see how expensive it really gets). So came Vista, and that trend is not going to end.. what a waste of carbon, energy and glossy lipstick for over 4 years now.. When they do Office in WPF, then it might be stable and polished enough to chase (if ever). Why bother beforehand, because it is 'cool and style-able' ? I took that pill and ported the WinForm bits and cannot regret more doing something that has such a massive marketshare out there it accounts for 0-MSFT-apps to-date that are completely written in that 'tech'. It came from the IE-explorer team and new bloat-it-Java-style MS geeks, and man that browser is just all over the places and pieces.. Long-term yes it make sense but when something takes so long to fix, it just tells a story that is XAML today ( pure verbosity, pure penalties, and lots of workarounds and steep curves for equivalent result that will one day be done by Designers-Only ! ).. All yours..

Vista is not bad, it is terrible for 90% of people I know of, including myself. But it doesn't matter, whatever you buy, you will keep buying and upgrading whenever MSFT tells you so. You get 5GB of crap installed every few years, excluding SPs, frameworks, studio; VM way is about the only way to handle the regular sheep-sudo-apt-get-hypnotised-and-ugrade mess.

XP x64 is the same build as 2003 x64 btw. True, some OS version detects can hamper drivers but x64 XP is so much more responsive than Vista crap (especially locking the desktop, explorer, with SPs, footprint and so much more).

For grins it's the Nehalem EP and dozens of Xeon 5100 and 5400 and lots of SAS disks.. Frog, seriously, just use Google and look out for blue screen keyword. There never ever was a more crappy OS than Vista in terms of performance or uselesness or frustration (but hey, sheep defend anything). Full of candy, and full of crap dragging itself. Only a complete layman could claim Vista, Server 2008 or Windows 7 runs smoother than XP or Server 2003; it's just living in dreams. Like those guys living in dreams whenever they launch a few Silverlight apps in a browser and pretend it hasn't eaten 70% of their RAM and CPU resources.. Jokers..